A shania post

[elindauer]

Here's something to ponder...

Most people are familiar with the idea that it might just be possible to add some -EV hands to your mix and produce a game which has a higher EV than before you started. This possibility has always intrigued me, but I could never quite figure out any practical application of it.

Until just now.

My problem, I think, has been that I've always thought of adding hands that are just slightly -EV to the mix. Well, I don't think that raising AT UTG is going to suddenly spark my game. However, what if I add some hands that most players think are VERY -EV?

Hmmm... now that might have some interesting side effects. Naturally, against your typical multitabling TAG who is using some kind of stat tracker, I'm probably just giving away a bit of my edge. But what about the rest of the table?

Let's say that from now on, I raise 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] no matter what the action to me. I don't even have to take it that far... let's say I'll raise if no one has yet raised. What would happen?

Well, first, I'll win sometimes without showing. Then other times I'll catch and lay a nasty bad beat on someone. Still other times, I'll show it down and lose, either because I bluffed all the way, or because I made a 2nd best hand.

Every time I show the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] down, my opponents are going to notice. They are going to make little notes that say "maniac. raises any 2 preflop."...

Oops. They are going to give me way too much action. Bam. Shania improves.


I think the key to this concept is that the hand has to have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Obviously, you want to play a hand that doesn't cost you too much, but your opponents can't attribute you any solid thinking when they see the showdown. They have to see it and think, man, that guy sucks.


I'm considering adding two such plays to my arsenal. Some kind of goofy EP limp (reraise?) where I'll pick a particular hand, like the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and one open raise in MP, again with a particular hand. I'll change the actual choices randomly throughout the day, but I'll always know before the hand starts what cards are going to set off my backwards plays.

Any takers? Am I just giving away money?

-eric

I make the same play with 9-10 anytime i get it in early pos. I always raise, and i do this for the reasons you stated in the OP.

I think that it's worthy to add one or two hands like this to your mix, but make it a hand that has chance, i.e, not 6-4, IMO.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I make the same play with 9-10 anytime i get it in early pos. I always raise, and i do this for the reasons you stated in the OP.

I think that it's worthy to add one or two hands like this to your mix, but make it a hand that has chance, i.e, not 6-4, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like we're thinking along the same lines, but my suggestion is slightly different. That is, raising T9 is obviously loose, and maybe that is all you need to do to convince your opponents that you are bad and get excess action. I assume you are not raising hands like JT, QJ, KJ, etc, right?

But there are 16 combinations of T9, and only one combination of 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Raising T9 is laggy, raising 62 is stupidly absurdly laggy. Which is better? You give up less equity per hand, but do it 16x more often... you get to show more often, which is good, but...

Well, food for thought. Thanks for the suggestion.

-eric

[PokerCad]

I don't think this play is effective on-line as I agree most players are just not paying this close attention. However live, it can be effective as an example, this last weekend at Resorts, East Chicago, I was playing in the 20-40 game, not being a regular and having an apparant table image of TAG I was getiing no action on most of my PFR's, to mix it up I started raising 2-3O/S first 2 no shows stole pot, the third time I raised and was re-raised, I called and saw a flop of AK2, I bet, raise, call turn rag I check/call River 2, I bet raise I re-raise, villian had AK. I realize I got lucky winning the hand but for the rest of the night that hand stood out around the whole table and loosened up the play towards me while allowing me to play my regular TAG style for a profitable session. So was the play expert? I dunno, was it dumb luck? I dunno, I am still learning from many of the better players in this forum. Just thought I would outline a situation where I believe this move was very effective.

Jeff [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ErrantNight]

isn't it possible that since DERB seems to play this way... and no one on the 2p2 boards has succesfully identified how he's winning... and everyone seems to dismiss out of hand the possibility that one's play can influence their opponents because "no one pays attention" ... that perhaps people are too easily dismissing the capacity of even donkeys to notice at least SOMETHING?

[elindauer]

One other question... would you share your stats in EP for T9 and for all hands combined?

thanks.
eric

I got PT like, three days ago....

I'll be happy to after enought time has past for it to show up in my game...

[ErrantNight]

doing this with ONLY 9To almost defeats the purpose... and misses the point to some degree...

varying the cards is important.

what he seems to be getting at... what DERB may be extremely proficient at... and what "Shania" is talking about... is game theory. advanced game theory. it's touched on in the 2+2 books... primarily with discussion of bluffing frequency.

fwiw, i think that opponents who may (or may actually) play with blinders on are still not immune to noticing terribly obvious things... like extremely aggressive play... like making terrible river showdowns... and i think that a complete lack of capacity to read hands or boards or remember players should be confused with that

[newhizzle]

how would you go about randomizing the hands that you choose?

just have a list of crap hands or something and every hour or so or once you show one down, randomly pick a new one?

i think this is an interesting idea, how far postflop would you be willing to go?

like if you have very little chance of winning, will you be trying to push people off their hands if they show resistance?

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
how would you go about randomizing the hands that you choose?

just have a list of crap hands or something and every hour or so or once you show one down, randomly pick a new one?

i think this is an interesting idea, how far postflop would you be willing to go?

like if you have very little chance of winning, will you be trying to push people off their hands if they show resistance?

[/ QUOTE ]

These are all excellent questions for which I would like suggestions. My first instinct is to play these rare hands hard, provided that you think the fold equity is at least close to being there. The added benefit of having the table think you are insane makes up for a lot of mistakes in this one rare hand.

-eric