Call two bets on turn w/ nut low/flush draws?

[jgunnip]

Where can I find the hand convertor for 08?

Dealt to jgunnip [ Jh 2c Qd Ah ]
actiomman calls [$0.5].
tampafrog folds.
MM1MM1 calls [$0.5].
Chevy_44 calls [$0.5].
Choteau folds.
trekkie2 checks.
jwpoet calls [$0.5].
brimelian calls [$0.5].
jgunnip calls [$0.25].
collee checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7h, 4c, Th ]
jgunnip checks.
collee checks.
actiomman checks.
MM1MM1 checks.
Chevy_44 checks.
trekkie2 checks.
jwpoet bets [$0.5].
brimelian calls [$0.5].
jgunnip calls [$0.5].
collee calls [$0.5].
actiomman calls [$0.5].
MM1MM1 calls [$0.5].
Chevy_44 calls [$0.5].
trekkie2 calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ]
jgunnip checks.
collee bets [$1].
actiomman raises [$2].
MM1MM1 calls [$2].
Chevy_44 folds.
trekkie2 folds.
jwpoet calls [$2].
brimelian folds.
jgunnip calls [$2].
collee calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
jgunnip checks.
collee checks.
actiomman checks.
MM1MM1 bets [$1].
jwpoet raises [$2].
jgunnip folds.
collee calls [$2].
actiomman folds.
MM1MM1 calls [$1].
jwpoet shows [ Ad, 5s, 4d, 4s ] a full house, Fours full of tens.
collee shows [ 9d, 9s, 6h, 8h ] a full house, Nines full of tens.
MM1MM1 doesn't show [ 7s, 7d, 3d, 2s ] a full house, Sevens full of tens.
collee wins $23 from the main pot with a full house, Nines full of tens.
There was no qualifying low hand.


I'm fairly new to O8. My thoughts on the hand are that preflop it is a fairly strong starting hand that wants to see a flop. On the flop, I yet have a hand but I do have many strong draws (16 cards to the nut low, 5 cards to the nut flush, and 4 cards to the nut low and flush, plus a backdoor straight draw).
I'm think this might be a good spot to check raise if the riase occurs where there are a lot of callers before it gets back to me. As it turned out the bet came from late position so I just called to induce overcalls.
The turn was not a helpful card but I felt my draws were still strongso I called. I didn't catch anything on the river so I had to let the hand go.

All comments welcome.

[kitaristi0]

I'd call. Your getting very enticing odds and you have a strong draw. Then again, what do i know, i've never played a hand of Omaha Hi-Lo in my life [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

[MyTurn2Raise]

Let's see, with the betting and number of players, there is probably another A-2 and at least one player with a set going to the river. So we have:
4 Kings for high ~ 100% of pot
Qh for nut high = 100% of pot
3h,5h,6h,8h gives nut high and puts nut low for ~75% of pot
three 3s, three 5s, three 6s, three 7s for nut low ~25% pot

So 5/44 cards give 100% of pot-11.3636% pot equity
4/44 for 75%-6.81% pot equity
12/44 for 25%-6.81% pot equity

Roughly, you have 25% equity in the pot.
Therefore, as long as the pot is $8, which it was, good call.

Of course, you must beware that you can be caught in the middle. Colle might have re-raised and it could've been capped, making it $4 on the turn. Also, there are potentially 2 other A2's out there.

With 2 other A-2 players, the calculations are:
5/44 cards for 100% of pot-11.36% pot equity
4/44 cards for 2/3 of pot-6.06% pot equity
12/44 cards for 1/6 of pot-4.54% pot equity
totals 17.41%
The pot was already $14, so yes a $2 call is OK, but it would be dreadful to get caught in a raising war here.

On the positive side, when you hit your card for a high, I guarantee that someone or ones will pay you off at that level of table for just a bet more.

Even without the math, I'd call this every single time, but it was fun to see the numbers back it up.

I also might have raised the flop.

[MyTurn2Raise]

Holy crap...i forgot to put the 3 off-suit 8s in the calculations and that two clubs were out there. The Kc is probably no good now, so subtract that 1 card. However, the 8d and 8s are great cards.
They would be good for ~75% of the pot with one A-2 and ~2/3 with two A-2s.
The 8c is good for either 25% of pot or 16.66%.
Your odds just went up a little.

[gergery]

I'd have raised for value on the turn.

By my count, you have just over 6 million outs here.

With 4 opponents, you only need 20% equity in the hand to make raising correct and you have an OESD + nutflush draw +nut low draw.

If you assume the other opponent who folded was going to split with you for both the A2 and QJ and had a flushdraw you were still EV positive here.

pokenum -o8 ad 5s 4d 4s - 9d 9s 6h 8h - 7s 7d 3d 2s - jh 2c qd ah - ac 2d js qc -- 7h 4c th 9c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 28 enumerated boards containing 9c 4c Th 7h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 4s Ad 4d 1 1 27 0 1 9 0 0.054
9s 9d 8h 6h 6 11 17 0 0 8 0 0.304
7s 2s 7d 3d 1 1 27 0 1 9 0 0.054
2c Qd Ah Jh 2 5 19 4 0 0 12 0.286
Js Ac Qc 2d 2 6 18 4 0 0 12 0.304

[Scruff]

I agree with gergery (and still LOL at the 6 million outs comment), but I would definitely raise the turn, though I was thinking that might be perceived as being too aggressive. I'm pretty new to the game myself, but that was my first thought.

Nice to see the math too . . .

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly new to O8. My thoughts on the hand are that preflop it is a fairly strong starting hand that wants to see a flop. On the flop, I yet have a hand but I do have many strong draws (16 cards to the nut low, 5 cards to the nut flush, and 4 cards to the nut low and flush, plus a backdoor straight draw).

[/ QUOTE ]

3rd, This is an awesome hand especially against the crap that everyone else is playing (9s 9d 8h 6h, and 7s 2s 7d 3d).

Flop, I would jam this, bet it out and hope you get raised, stop being so tricky. A checkraise would also give away your hand.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1067768
pokenum -o8 jh 2c qd ah - ad 5s 4d 4s - 9d 9s 6h 8h - 7s 7d 3d 2s -- 7h 4c th
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 528 enumerated boards containing 4c Th 7h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
2c Qd Ah Jh 94 137 391 0 270 36 12 0.421
5s 4s Ad 4d 18 32 496 0 53 238 6 0.097
9s 9d 8h 6h 33 200 328 0 0 275 0 0.221
7s 2s 7d 3d 71 159 369 0 57 234 6 0.261
</pre><hr />

Turn, Bet it again. You just picked up a OESD with a scoop out ( Any King), This adds 4 more scoop outs, to your collection of scoop outs.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1067778
pokenum -o8 jh 2c qd ah - ad 5s 4d 4s - 9d 9s 6h 8h - 7s 7d 3d 2s -- 7h 4c Th 9c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 32 enumerated boards containing 9c 4c Th 7h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
2c Qd Ah Jh 10 11 21 0 12 0 0 0.438
5s 4s Ad 4d 1 1 31 0 2 9 0 0.062
9s 9d 8h 6h 9 19 13 0 0 10 0 0.438
7s 2s 7d 3d 1 1 31 0 2 9 0 0.062
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>

[JoshuaMayes]

I would raise preflop. I would put as much money in on the flop as I could. I would flat-call on the turn, because I want to keep in customers to pay me off when I hit.

[jgunnip]

thanks for the replies. I'm finally getting a better idea of when I should be getting agressive after the flop.

As for raising with this hand before the flop. I'm in the small blind and while building the pot would be nice. I still only have A2 with a suited ace. If the queen had been another wheel card or a suited king with the two then I possibly see raising. But as it was, I didn't really have all my cards working together and I can't imagine that raising would be much more +EV than completing.

[JoshuaMayes]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the replies. I'm finally getting a better idea of when I should be getting agressive after the flop.

As for raising with this hand before the flop. I'm in the small blind and while building the pot would be nice. I still only have A2 with a suited ace. If the queen had been another wheel card or a suited king with the two then I possibly see raising. But as it was, I didn't really have all my cards working together and I can't imagine that raising would be much more +EV than completing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand is a monster, and well worth raising for value against that many opponents.