Folding bottom full on river

[StoneAge]

2-5 Blinds at the Rio

Player A calls (~$950) UTG+1. I've been playing with her for about five hours- my read on her is too loose pre-flop, decent after flop- might draw sometimes with short odds. She pays attention and changes her play based on the players- things like calling down over-agressive players' big bets with marginal hands but I have not seen her try to push anyone off a hand. I feel that she reads me as a good player.

Player B (~$350) makes it 15 to go from the button. He has been at the table a couple of hours. My read on him is agressive pre-flop, weak post flop.

I am in the small blind with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I make it 40 to go (~$875). Player A says something like "I just wanted to see a flop" (I feel it is and honest remark)- both call.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]- I bet $75 into $160 pot- call call.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]- I bet 100 into $385 pot- Player A calls, B folds.

River: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]- I bet 150 into $585 pot- Player A goes all-in (she has my ~$510 covered).

Some of my thoughts in the tank: Flush- unlikely for a few reasons. Her husband was also at the table to my left. I like to stand up a lot when I am not in a hand- a couple of times when he was standing up also (we were out of earshot at the table) he read her hand or made comments about the opposing player being in trouble, indicating when she initiated putting big money in the pot she had high values (and I don't think I saw her initiate a big all-in the whole night). I didn't think she would make this big of a bet with a flush against a paired board

Her comment pre-flop also seemed to support not having a hand like K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or maybe even K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] as my read was that she overvalued those types of hands pre-flop against a raise and would not say something like "I just wanted to see the flop".

I thought she would 'just like to see the flop' with a hand like A9s, A8s,(maybe even unsuited) or 99. I didn't think she would make the comment with AJ or especially AJs, but with the J on the river and then a big raise, that was a definite possiblity.

One other thing, which I am a bit embassed to admit, that went through my head was that I would still have $500 after starting the session with $200. I was on a short bankroll (having most of my bankroll online), just getting into town (going to be here through May) and making a good score in $4-8 limit the night before, I would rather keep the $500 and have a $1200 bankoll than take a chance at an extra grand.

I am just switching over to No-Limit from Mid-Limit games (up to 25-50), trying to take advantage of its current popluarity- so any comments on the hand or my thought processes would be appreciated.

[lapoker17]

Didn't have time to read the whole hand, but you reraised out of SB w 88? This is not good, and is probably due to your limit experience. Just call there, especially with the limper up front.

[DoubleDown]

I am not sure I understand how you are able to knock off the KQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], JT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], XX [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hands off her possible holding so easily. Many players love to see a cheap flop with these and use them effectively coupled with strong post-flop play.

I am not so sure that you can eliminate her having a made flush by the river as a possible holding as you gave her the proper (if not even favorable) odds to draw to her flush.

She may even be on a river bluff ... she knows that you know her to be a solid player, correct? She could easily put you on a hand like AK ... betting it from the start, but not strongly as you are solid and dont want to get over-involved with TPTK. You hit your trips on the turn, and now are trying to get more money in the pot. She may have viewed your small river bet as some sort of blocking bet ($150 into a pot of $585) and figured she may be able to blow you off your trips with her TT perhaps.

just some random thoughts- looking forward to hearing from others with some more experience

[LuvDemNutz]

This is a tough one - I could maybe see 99 playing the hand this way.

If I she had A9 do you think she would smooth call the trun with the plan of pushing in on the river if a non Q or K fell? That is one possible line (although I think it is the wrong one) -

She still may be drawing to a flush and if she puts you on an ace - and figures that AJ, A9, A8 for you are highly unlikely holdings since you raised out of the Blinds, then an all-in on the river would make some sense from a flush.

[StoneAge]

I think you're right- my thinking was that I wanted to isolate the button (I felt he could be raising with a wide range of hands here and I could outplay him after the flop) as I knew that Player A would play way too many hands UTG.

Where I failed was that I would not be able to isolate the button (I should have realized that she had a high likelyhood of calling) and I recall Harrington saying something about a weak player being able to beat a strong player if he always has position on the strong player.

[arkose]

raising to $40 is not going to be enough to remove her, if she is slightly loose preflop and she also knows the late position player isn't very good...if you want to try and get rid of her, raise to $60

that said, i agree with lapoker in that you shouldn't be raising out of the blinds with a middle pair...you build a big pot out of position with a hand that can easily be caught, especially against 2 players...

but, given that you did raise preflop...i think you need to come out betting more on the flop...and if not the flop, then the turn......the flop is coordinated, there are lots of hands either of them could have that they will want to play, and you should make it expensive for them to do so.....betting a third of the pot, or whatever it was, is not going to help you at all

i would say its even more crucial to come out betting bigger on a scary board if you are on a low bankroll...you can't afford to be tricky and give someone with AJ or a flush draw a cheap draw on an early street....the pot is big enough for you, don't get greedy

as for what she probably has, i can't see her making that comment about a cheap flop with a good hand like 99...if she had either of them though, i think she would be raising on the flop for the same reasons i said you should bet more; its a scary board...and since you played the whole hand weak, I would expect her to show you a flush or an ace, with AJ a definite possibility

[StoneAge]

I felt she was a decent, but not exceptional player. Decent enough not to go all in with a flush on the river with a paired board- but not exceptional in that I didn't think it was in her aresenal to blast trip As out of the pot- and I really couldn't see any hands she could get to the river with that she would bluff with.

I bet $150 because I thought she might make a small raise with a flush, and I could re-evaluate if she made a big raise.

[imperious]

Your weak betting post flop on this hand has created this situation on the river.
Would she call you down with AJ? JJ? Seems unlikely she would call a raise with AJ or call you down with JJ, so it could very well be she is actually holding the flush.

Has she slowplayed any big hands? Would she call behind with 99 or A9 on the turn?
Based on your read and the betting I think her most likely holding is the flush if she's read you for AK.
If I played the hand this weakly it's because I would be trapping/giving odds to a flush so when it hits on the river I would call the raise without a strong tell.
If she puts you on AK which is the way you may have played it (keeping the pot smallish?), then it's likely she would bet less on the river with a boat to get you to call.

Playing NL on scared money creates problems like this - if you're playing on a small roll then buy in for less and play far more aggressively with premium hands.
Raising out of the SB with 88 and then playing weak post flop is not the way.

[StoneAge]

I bet just under 1/2 the pot $75 into $160 for a couple of reasons- I knew that a flush was not getting nearly as much pot equity against a set as it would against other hands. I just ran pokerstove for 88 AhJh and KcQc with the Ac9c8 board- the KQ is only getting 26% so a call would be barely correct with current pot odds.

I felt justified in making a bet like this because the way the play of the table went- people were generally underbetting the pot, so I felt that if the flush came on the turn, the betting would show me that yet I would have good odds to draw to the full house. I also felt that if the full came on the turn that I could milk a lot from a flush draw and make a large bet and have someone drawing much more poorly on the turn.

[StoneAge]

Why would she go all in with the flush, but bet less with a full house?

If I have AK,she wants a call with either of these hands