10-20 TT on button

[StoneAge]

Just sat down 3rd hand I am dealt two red tens on Button. Players unknown to me. In the couple hands I have seen 4 or 5 players see the flop. Two MPs limp, CO raises, I reraise, Two MPs and CO call. Flop 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] . Checked to me, I bet all call. Turn J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] . Checked to me, I bet 1st MP folds, 2nd raises, CO folds I call. River A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . Checked down.

Questions
Was the three bet the best play on the flop?
Should I have raised the turn with my open ender to get a free showdown if I miss, bet if I hit (without a club)?
Given that I was timid on the turn, should I have called a bet on the river if the A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] had not come to give me a free showdown?

[Softrock]

I think the 3-bet before the flop is marginal. Three people are already in - generally with a hand like TT you want to get heads up or play it multi-way. Given the unlikelihood that the first two limpers would fold (I say this because the typical player will not fold before the flop once he/she has put in a bet and you didn't know these players)I think playing it multi-way by just calling and increasing the chances that the blinds will get in there would be best.

I probably re-raise on the turn but don't think there's a great difference between raising and calling.

[Jeffage]

I think calling before the flop has a lot of merit in this spot. You're probably not gonna get it heads up with a raise, so you don't mind people coming in since you're playing for the set primarily. But best of all is your position on the preflop aggressor. If you flop an overpair you can raise the flop and then get it heads up potentially (where one bet on the flop can't protect your hand). As it was played, I would call the checkraise usually since 3 betting opens you up to a 4 bet and I think you want to see if you can hit as cheap as possible in this spot. On the river, paying off is player dependent...my guess is he has at minimum AJ but more likely a set or two pair. I would often fold if I don't improve unless the player is capable of a complete move like that.

Jeff

[astroglide]

i don't see ANY reason to 3bet preflop

[StoneAge]

[Hamlet]

I disagree that there is no reason to 3-bet pre-flop. In most of the games I play, the two limpers are likely to have very weak hands, and the raiser's most likely hand is two overcards.

If you are up against A8s, 77, and AK, you should 3-bet. Even if every overcard is out against you, it isn't the end of the world. If the raiser has an overpair, I'd rather find out pre-flop than later.

The only way that I wouldn't three-bet this hand is if the raiser was very tight, and an overpair was very likely. In which case folding is probably better than calling.

[Jeffage]

10-10 plays best either heads up or multiway. It plays the worst against 2 or 3 opponents. With position on the button, I'd limp and let in the blinds in the situation described...if one person limped, and then the raise, I'd consider reraising esp. if I could drop the limper. In this case, having more people see the flop is better.

Jeff

[gaylord focker]

Im not sure how people can think about reraising the turn here. It very unlikey this player cant beat 10 10 in this situation. In my opinion its even a marginal call agaist some predicable players.

[Dynasty]

10-10 plays best either heads up or multiway. It plays the worst against 2 or 3 opponents.

This concept of TT (and JJ) playing poorly against 3 or 4 opponents is grossly misunderstood. Posters have been rehashing some of Mason's comments about this situation without giving it any independent thought. I don't even think Mason has explained it very well. The key factor in deciding whether TT is in good shape against 3 or four opponents is what your opponents are playing.

TT (and JJ) plays great against three opponents when those opponents hold "legitimate hands" like A9s, 44, and 87s (43% equity in a simulation). However, they play much worse against "trash hands" like A9o, K2s, and Q5s (33% equity in a simulation).

Wben you've got TT (or JJ) in late postion and there are limpers ahead of you, you need to know what your oppponents are limping with. If they are inclined limp with AJ and KQ, you're in bad shape and should consider limpimp behind. If they are more inclined limp with smaller pairs and suited connectors but would have raised with the big offsuit cards, you should raise.

When you've got TT (or JJ) in early position, you need to know what your opponents will cold-call raises with. Some players will always call a raise with any pocket pair or suited connector but will always dump big offsuit cards (except AK). Others will call with the big offsuit cards and always dump the suited connectors and some of the pairs. If you're playing against opponents who will dump the big offsuit cards but call wtih the pairs and suited connectors, you should raise. If they'll call with the AJo/KQo, then limping is best.

The idea that TT (and JJ) plays badly against 3 or 4 opponents is wrong if taken at face value. It depends upon what your opponents are likely to be playing given the pre-flop betting action.