Mike Caro has lost his mind!

[miketurner]

So I buy Mike’s new DVD special... You get 3 DVD’s and a "pamphlet" type lesson plan for $20.00. Not a bad deal, right? I watch the first DVD and in it, he says "Don’t raise with pocket aces from any position." He goes on to say why... "You don’t want to drive away your customers." wtf?

I say there are times to slow play your aces, like when a very aggressive bettor acts after you or when you get a BB that thinks "nobody limps into MY blind", or maybe when you’re on the button and it has folded around to you. I’m sure I could think of a few more instances where slow playing your pocket aces might be a good "deception", but come on Mike Caro.... Are you just wanting us at your table or what?

[mosquito]

That's his early position play. Limp and reraise.
I don't like it myself, but he has 'taught' that
for about 15-20 years now. Still advertises it as
a 'new' way to play, lol.

For late position he still raises.

Also, it's part of a 'mixed strategy' so that
in theory people won't know what you have when
you limp.....something like that.

[BluffTHIS!]

This is correct. Playing aces in early position this way is part of an overall strategy that is all supposed to be used to properly balance and provide deception, not something to be taken individually without the rest. The overall strategies for various limits are given in table form in the back of his professional holdem report (out of print now) and in the back of his and Cappelletti's Poker at the Millenium book on holdem and omaha. I think that limp reraising with aces is acceptable on it's own in a very tight game with few mulitway pots where you don't fear a couple loose players immediately after you calling as well to induce even more calls. The risk of course is allowing the blinds to flop a hand with crap or someone calling with a dominated hand who would have folded but now out-flops you.

[thetman]

Mike has forgot more poker than most of us know!

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
I watch the first DVD and in it, he says "Don’t raise with pocket aces from any position."

[/ QUOTE ]
Is that an exact quote? After six limpers, he wouldn't raise on the button or out of the blinds?

Or is it possible that the "from any position" part is your own paraphrasing, and you may have misunderstood?

[miketurner]

I watched it again to make sure before I replied again. He is, in fact, talking about early position... but he's not saying limp and re-raise. It’s very long, but here is a partial exact quote...

“Now people say ‘oh no! oh no! You have to raise with aces. Because, otherwise people are gonna come in and draw out on you.’ I say let em! Let em come in and draw out on me. Yes, I’ll take more losses. Of coarse with more people shooting at my pair of aces, I’ll lose more often. But I don’t care, because they’re getting the worst of it. If they’re getting the worst of it, then I like it. I’m getting the best of it, so I want to invite people in. Plus, if I raise, or maybe somebody else has already raised, and now I re-raise... What happens? I’ll chase people out of the pot. Do I want to chase weak hands out when I’m holding a pair of aces? I’m holding a pair of aces! You only get this 1 out of 221 hands! 221 hands, I get a pair of aces. I don’t get other big hands very often either. I don’t want to chase away my customers. I want them in the pot” - Mike Caro

There is more, but he never, NEVER, says to limp / re-raise. He is encouraging a multi way pot with everything he says in this DVD. Like I said... he has lost his mind! It makes me wonder about everything else he says now. I don’t want to take bad advise... And this is bad advise!

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]

“Now people say ‘oh no! oh no! You have to raise with aces. Because, otherwise people are gonna come in and draw out on you.’ I say let em! Let em come in and draw out on me. Yes, I’ll take more losses. Of coarse with more people shooting at my pair of aces, I’ll lose more often. But I don’t care, because they’re getting the worst of it. If they’re getting the worst of it, then I like it. I’m getting the best of it, so I want to invite people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes much more sense than "never raise with aces", and it expresses a concept that most beginners would do well to learn; you never raise with the sole intent to 'chase people out' unless you are bluffing. A raise for value is nothing more than offering your opponents the worst of it when they have inferior hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, if I raise, or maybe somebody else has already raised, and now I re-raise... What happens? I’ll chase people out of the pot. Do I want to chase weak hands out when I’m holding a pair of aces? I’m holding a pair of aces! You only get this 1 out of 221 hands! 221 hands, I get a pair of aces. I don’t get other big hands very often either. I don’t want to chase away my customers. I want them in the pot” - Mike Caro

[/ QUOTE ]

Now this I think is a bit nutty. You have AA, you want to give other hands the opportunity to call with the worst of it. Not raising gives crap hands the opportunity to limp in getting the best of it (or worse, allows the big blind to check getting infinite odds to outdraw your aces!). If you want to squander your aces by giving people the right price to outdraw them, then that's fine. Personally, I think it's much better to offer them a bad price and if they outdraw you on this hand, then they outdraw you, and those are the breaks - but over the long run you'll get the money, which you won't if you never raise with your aces.

...and as far as the "you only get AA once out of every 221 hands!" bit, you only get 8-3 suited once out of every 331.5 hands - that doesnt mean you have to cherish it :P

[bygmesterf]

[Quote]
Now this I think is a bit nutty. You have AA, you want to give other hands the opportunity to call with the worst of it. Not raising gives crap hands the opportunity to limp in getting the best of it (or worse, allows the big blind to check getting infinite odds to outdraw your aces!). If you want to squander your aces by giving people the right price to outdraw them, then that's fine. Personally, I think it's much better to offer them a bad price and if they outdraw you on this hand, then they outdraw you, and those are the breaks - but over the long run you'll get the money, which you won't if you never raise with your aces.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mike's point is very valid, You get aces so rarely, that it really is a shame to win just the blinds with them.

BTW where did you buy all this Mike Caro stuff?

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike's point is very valid, You get aces so rarely, that it really is a shame to win just the blinds with them.

BTW where did you buy all this Mike Caro stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps, but if it's a choice between "winning just the blinds with aces" and "giving a 9-4 offsuit in the big blind the best of it", i'll take the blinds, thank you very much. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

and as for where you get it, there's some kind of whammy-jammy Caro DVD package at caropokersecrets.com

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike's point is very valid, You get aces so rarely, that it really is a shame to win just the blinds with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

The expected value of raising, or atleast limp-reraising is way higher than limping. Off course you cherish it if everyone calls your raise as this a best case scenario (well, the real best case scenario is if everyone but the big blind calls at a full table, but it's close enough).

Intentionally giving people the opportunity to correcly limp is costing you money.