Question....

[kurto]

$100 NL Pokerstars

I have $120. Most people have less then a full stack. Many people are playing with 1/2 stacks. (I will share results because its all relevent, I think to understand my dilemma)

I'm in MP. 3 limpers. I raise to $6 with pocket Aces.

Surprisingly, 6 people call my raise?!?! (This was not normal)

There's $36 in the pot. The Flop comes 7 9 K 2 diamonds.

Checked to me. Here's my dilemma. I have to bet, because I can't give free cards, especially with the 2 diamonds. So I bet $25. Folds around to a shortstacked player who goes all in (for about $35 - so $10 to me)... I call. And, like I thought, he has pocket 9s.

So, my question is, when playing against much shorterstacks, and with so many callers? What am I supposed to do? With so many callers, any bet I make pot commits me (because their stacks are short, any raise they make is a fraction of the pot)

Granted, I didn't expect this many callers for a 6xbb raise. Which forced the pot to be so much larger then I would have liked. Am I just screwed because so many people called that I have to lose nearly half a buy in with aces?

Since I was early, It wouldn't have made sense (and would have been very obvious) if I overbet preflop.

Also.. with 6 people calling a raise, there's got to be a few pocket pairs out there (increasing the odds that someone has a set). So... Is there any way to play this differently? Or is this just tough luck that so many people had hands to call a raise with which bloated the pot?

[LethalRose]

I usually raise 4BB + 1BB per limper. You want to get it down to 1-2 players with a hand like AA or get it all in PF. On the flop if you get 2 callers theres about 21 BB's in the pot. Most times you will bet and someone will either push (pot is to large) and you can make a decision. or you'll get called by a fish with top pair who doesnt believe you. Sometimes you run into a set.

aces are the best hand PF however once you see a flop with 3+ players a good % of the time someone will hit 2 pair or a set (not sure on actual percentage).

in other words, raise more PF and make it -EV for people to call you with PP's to try to hit a set. Eventually it will even out.

Id say with this hand you just had bad luck, it happens. Most of the time 6 ppl wont call your raise, thats kinda crazy.

also if i get aces again on this table and there are multiple limpers I may just push. Worse case you pick up 6BB best case you get a call and stack someone.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise 4BB + 1BB per limper.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, me too. I raised 1 less (when I raised there were only 3 people before me (and I'm counting the BB))

I can say I rarely see this many people calling with a 4xbb bet, much less a 6.

The thing is... if the player had a full stack, and raised all in, I would have strongly considered folding. I put him on a set because of the limp/calling a raise... and thinking he at worst would put me on a pair of kings and possibly aces... so I knew he had a pair beat... but I can't fold to a $100 pot for $10.

I think I also have to only play at tables where the majority of players have a full stack. SOOO many players are buying in with half stacks or less. I hate playing against a table full of shortstacks.

[Malachii]

Raise enough so that they can't profitably call you with pocket pairs is the correct adjustment. If it makes you feel any better, by forcing him to put in 6$ for a 1/8 chance to hit his set w/ a 41$ stack, you made Sklansky bucks.

[kurto]

I usually make consistant bet sizes to not give away any information. (variations are based on #of players in pot and position)

Are you suggesting if there are a lot of short stacks, I should raise more then usual to give them improper odds to play any pocket pair?

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise enough so that they can't profitably call you with pocket pairs is the correct adjustment. If it makes you feel any better, by forcing him to put in 6$ for a 1/8 chance to hit his set w/ a 41$ stack, you made Sklansky bucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

If short-stack was the 6th person to cold call the raise, he was getting excellent odds. Even being the just third cold-caller this would be an certain preflop call for 99 I'd think.

Still, your point is a good one, even if it doesn't actually give poor odds to later callers if too many people cold call.

[LethalRose]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually make consistant bet sizes to not give away any information. (variations are based on #of players in pot and position)

Are you suggesting if there are a lot of short stacks, I should raise more then usual to give them improper odds to play any pocket pair?

[/ QUOTE ]


I would do so yes. I have charged as much as 1/2 their stack PF only to have them fold to 1/4 the pot on the flop. Set farming isnt a very good way to make monay in ring games unless you can pay very little for the opportunity.

[LethalRose]

This is a simulation i just ran, AA vs 6 hands people will often call raises with to try to hit a flop. as you can see aces is the best hand only 30% of the time if it goes to showdown vs all the hands. its reasonable to assume aces are good here about 50% on the flop. its fair to late to figure it out by hand. The good news is if you raise enough PF these hands will not make enough for it to become +EV, which is a good idea in a zero sum game.


<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Hand | AsAc | 9h9d | 8h8d | 7h7d | 4h3h | 6s5s | ThTd |
------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+
Win | 30982 | 12157 | 10164 | 8321 | 9361 | 12802 | 16145 |
Draw | 68 | 68 | 68 | 68 | 68 | 68 | 68 |
Lose | 68950 | 87775 | 89768 | 91611 | 90571 | 87130 | 83787 |
------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+
Win% | 30.99% | 12.17% | 10.17% | 8.33% | 9.37% | 12.81% | 16.15% |
------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+--------+


</pre><hr />

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
I can say I rarely see this many people calling with a 4xbb bet, much less a 6.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not how many BB's they are calling that matters, it's the odds that the pot is giving them on their calls that matter. They may not know what that means, but Hero's should.

If you use the 4xBB+1 guide, you give the first caller less than 2:1 odds to call you and he is getting improper odds to call. He is HU with the PFR with a hand that he is less than 50% to defeat. And all subsequent callers are getting bad odds also, less than 3:1 for the second caller in a 3-way pot where the PFR is more than a 33% favorite to win the hand, etc on down the line for all the rest of the callers. The 4x+1 works well for that, maybe even has to be adjusted upwards if there are many limpers.

You didn't give actual stack sizes, but if someone was really short, you can raise it to his stack size. That can be effective.