The kind of calls you need to make at the $215s....

[curtains]

I'm just posting this because I believe a lot of people on this forum would feel this is an automatic fold in TEPop's spot (NickB from 2+2), whereas it's actually a very good call in this situation..


***** Hand History for Game -2131683186 *****
200/400 TOURNEYTEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT 12855742) - MON JUN 06 03:21:14 EDT 2005
Table Table 11087 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: swiftdeal (1095)
Seat 2: luna00 (1140)
Seat 3: yozzy (1045)
Seat 4: The_Robot (1030)
Seat 5: dandydan144 (1290)
Seat 8: curtainz (1005)
Seat 9: phukyoo (1970)
Seat 10: TEPop84 (1425)
phukyoo posts small blind (100)
TEPop84 posts big blind (200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to curtainz [ Js, Ts ]
swiftdeal folds.
luna00 folds.
yozzy folds.
The_Robot folds.
dandydan144 folds.
curtainz raises (1005) to 1005
curtainz is all-In.
phukyoo folds.
TEPop84 calls (805)
Creating Main Pot with $2110 with curtainz
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2d, 9h, Qd ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 6c ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2110 |
Board: [ 2d 9h Qd 4h 6c ]
swiftdeal balance 1095, didn't bet (folded)
luna00 balance 1140, didn't bet (folded)
yozzy balance 1045, didn't bet (folded)
The_Robot balance 1030, didn't bet (folded)
dandydan144 balance 1290, didn't bet (folded)
curtainz balance 0, lost 1005 [ Js Ts ] [ high card queen -- Qd,Js,Ts,9h,6c ]
phukyoo balance 1870, lost 100 (folded)
TEPop84 balance 2530, bet 1005, collected 2110, net +1105 [ Ac 2h ] [ a pair of twos -- Ac,Qd,9h,2h,2d ]

[citanul]

good post? i'd like it better if you posted say, some of the icm numbers that make this call good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

plugging in any reasonably wide range of hands for this noob curtainz shows this to be a very significantly +EV call. it should be noted that if curtainz was a stupidly tight player, this call would of course be horrible. (if he's playing 77+, A9+, this would be a -2.7 call, which is wow bad.) something tells me this curtainz guy probably isn't stupidly tight though.

also should be included that there is bonus EV for spite call busting a fellow 2+2er.

other interesting things: say your range is as wide as 22+, A2+, K2+, Q2+, J9+, calling with things like K6o is +EV too. so well, maybe that explains why those fish that call with Kxo for 80% of their stacks are doing it, they know it's +EV.

citanul

[curtains]

Yea I just think it's interesting to highlight the difference between the $55s+ the $215s. I highly doubt anyone would recommend calling there against a typical opponent in a $55.

[hummusx]

[ QUOTE ]


Yea I just think it's interesting to highlight the difference between the $55s+ the $215s. I highly doubt anyone would recommend calling there against a typical opponent in a $55.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the part I'm not understanding though. How do we know that it is recommended to do this in the 215s against a typical opponent? I'm not saying that it ISN'T, I'm just saying that as I read this and try to educate myself, I don't see anything here that tells me that something is correct at the 215s that isn't correct at the 55s. I could post lots of hands where I pushed a hand in the 55s and someone made a call and beat me, but that wouldn't really mean anything.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]


Yea I just think it's interesting to highlight the difference between the $55s+ the $215s. I highly doubt anyone would recommend calling there against a typical opponent in a $55.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just about to ask the rationale behind the call when I saw this quote. This explains a little more why I (playing the $55s) shouldn't make this call against random donk-head. Of course if I ever make it to the $215s, my edge over others is much less, or none at all, and the opponents more agressive, where I'd be making this call routinely. Does that sound right?

[curtains]

Depends on situation. In this situation it was definitely a call. I'm sure there are players where it's a fold or at least much closer. However it's more common to make such tough calls in the $215s, especially calls that will leave you desperate with very little folding equity if you lose, yet you are reasonably comfortable in chips when you make the call.

[Mr_J]

Because he knows you will be stealing with a very wide range of hands here...

Out of interest, what range of hands should he be calling with??

[adanthar]

Three more things about this call, one why it's good and two
why it can be very ugly:

1)If you win, you eliminate a very good player to your right (plus the image play);
2)If you are even slightly off on your read, this play sucks;
3)If he knows you are good, there's a very good chance you *are* off on your read and his range is tighter.

So basically, I'd fold and feel pretty decent doing it, but I'd still spite call if my kicker was, like, a 5.

[Mr_J]

Level of thinking:

Nick knows curtains will be stealing with a huge range here. So he should call.

Curtains knows that nick knows he will be stealing with a huge range here, so he tightens up his pushing standards.

In turn, nick knows this and recongizes he needs a much higher calling requirement.

Curtains knows this and goes back to loose pushing standards.

It could go on forever....

[curtains]

Almost no one can call loose enough here to make pushing a very wide range incorrect. I mean he has to start calling with hands like K6o-Q9o before I stop pushing with +EV, and that's really tough to do.

Also let's talk about how unbelievably unlucky I was to not win this hand. It's completely ridiculous losing JTs to A2o.