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  #1  
Old 12-10-2005, 04:01 PM
imported_smoove imported_smoove is offline
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Default SB 77 flops set in big, multiway pot...I try to protect

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

<font color="blue">MP1 was 26/16/1.6 after just 31 hands. Rest of table was a pretty typical Party mix.

Edit: Is this even a time I should think about protecting? I'm most vulnerable to flush draws, and there's nothing I can do to get rid of them.

</font>

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $2. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 (poster) calls, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

<font color="blue">These guys are still getting 9:1, so this doesn't protect me against much more than a gutshot...and with implied odds, I'm sure it's close enough. Still worth a shot? Or is this one of those times when the pot is too big for this to help me? Not knowing that MP1 was going to 3-bet and help me thin the field, would I have been better served to check raise a safe turn instead of the flop? In that scenario, assuming MP1 bet the turn again, I would have been giving BB and UTG 6.75:1 at best on the turn, right?

It also occurs to me that I could have tried donking the flop, hoping MP1 would raise.</font>

Turn: (14.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (17.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB
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  #2  
Old 12-10-2005, 04:20 PM
Harv72b Harv72b is offline
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Default Re: SB 77 flops set in big, multiway pot...I try to protect

With your position relative the preflop raiser, it's 6 one way &amp; half a dozen the other as to betting or check/raising the flop. Actually, I prefer check/raising as you never know when one of the posters will raise ahead of you with his A7 or 67 or whatever, allowing you to 3-bet.

I think you played this hand perfectly. If you'd decided to check/call the flop and raise a safe turn, the third club coming on the turn ruins that plan (and probably means you have to lead the turn anyway, to be sure it isn't checked through). Also, keep in mind that while a flush draw will always have the correct odds to continue in a pot like this, you not only have a monster hand right now but also have a very strong redraw to beat a made flush. You should be looking to get 4 bets in on the flop every single time here.
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  #3  
Old 12-11-2005, 12:48 AM
Nick C Nick C is offline
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Default Re: SB 77 flops set in big, multiway pot...I try to protect

[ QUOTE ]
You should be looking to get 4 bets in on the flop every single time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, your results on the flop were very good.

On the flop, you have the best hand and the best draw, and you want bets going in. I'd be more worried about getting money in than protecting on the flop, in this hand. Good draws (clubs, 98) won't go away, but you certainly don't mind if someone with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] decides to peel, drawing dead against you.

If someone with a gutshot folds to your flop checkraise, then you have increased your chances of winning the hand. But you'd be missing too much value if you waited and tried to checkraise the turn. And you're not in such great relative position to be trying to protect anyway.
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  #4  
Old 12-11-2005, 12:57 AM
Scotch78 Scotch78 is offline
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Default Re: SB 77 flops set in big, multiway pot...I try to protect

I donk this flop 100% of the time. If MP1 has an overpair, he's probably going to raise. Two things happen here: first, it faces three players with two cold, whereas a check-raise by you only puts two players to the test. Second, you get to 3-bet if it's still multi-way. On the other hand, if MP1 doesn't have an overpair, he's probably going to check his overcards in a 7-handed pot.

Scott

edit: Also, with these rags you can't count on somebody else betting if the pre-flop raiser checks.
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  #5  
Old 12-11-2005, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: SB 77 flops set in big, multiway pot...I try to protect

I agree with Scotch: You should bet out here. More than likely, MP1 will raise, as most pre-flop aggressors will bet/raise the flop. This not only forces the players left to act after MP1 to call 2 bets cold, but when you 3-bet, you will force the players who called your inital bet on the turn to call 2 more bets (MP1's raise and your re-raise).
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  #6  
Old 12-11-2005, 01:37 AM
Harv72b Harv72b is offline
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Default Re: SB 77 flops set in big, multiway pot...I try to protect

I think we can count on the PFR to bet when it's checked to him far more than we can count on him to raise when it's bet to him. And this is exactly the kind of flop that someone is going to call "BS" on his autobet and raise, allowing you to check/3-bet pretty often.

When that happens, you get the double effect of facing any EP players who checked with 3 cold, and facing the PFR and anyone who called before the raise with 2 additional bets, after already getting 1 apiece out of them.

If it doesn't happen, you still c/r and get more money in the pot with a friggin' huge equity advantage over any hand that anyone is holding.

BTW, even though the pot is seven-handed, you have to discount the scare factor for the PFR heavily, because 4 of the players only paid 1 extra bet apiece to get in after the raise (and Hero got a 1/2 bet discount out of the SB). I feel pretty safe in saying that 100% of the time that he wouldn't autobet the flop, he wouldn't raise your bet either (and will actually fold fairly often).
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Old 12-11-2005, 03:38 AM
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Default Re: SB 77 flops set in big, multiway pot...I try to protect

[ QUOTE ]
With your position relative the preflop raiser, it's 6 one way &amp; half a dozen the other as to betting or check/raising the flop. Actually, I prefer check/raising as you never know when one of the posters will raise ahead of you with his A7 or 67 or whatever, allowing you to 3-bet.

I think you played this hand perfectly. If you'd decided to check/call the flop and raise a safe turn, the third club coming on the turn ruins that plan (and probably means you have to lead the turn anyway, to be sure it isn't checked through). Also, keep in mind that while a flush draw will always have the correct odds to continue in a pot like this, you not only have a monster hand right now but also have a very strong redraw to beat a made flush. You should be looking to get 4 bets in on the flop every single time here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree 100% with this statement, I wouldve played your hand the exact same way you did on every street. Nicely played IMO.
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  #8  
Old 12-11-2005, 03:41 AM
ghostface ghostface is offline
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Default Re: SB 77 flops set in big, multiway pot...I try to protect

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Is this even a time I should think about protecting? I'm most vulnerable to flush draws, and there's nothing I can do to get rid of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a value cap. No ones folding a decent draw.
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  #9  
Old 12-11-2005, 05:33 AM
dynamite dynamite is offline
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Default Re: SB 77 flops set in big, multiway pot...I try to protect

I like betting the flop, but your line looks good
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  #10  
Old 12-11-2005, 06:47 AM
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Default Re: SB 77 flops set in big, multiway pot...I try to protect

I feel that this is a reasonable line of argument. It might depend on the situation at the table what you do, but in general it sounds reasonable to check with the c/r to collect more money. Donīt forget: currently you have the best hand.
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