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  #91  
Old 12-02-2005, 05:26 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

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Yea, I'm sure the peasants and serfs of pre-modern times didn't really feel like their lives were regulated or that whether they lived or died was at the whim of the ruler or ruling class. And I am sure they felt that they would always receive fair and impartial justice.

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I seriously doubt they felt that a ruling ideology such as Nazism permeated their every action, transaction and thought. Pre-modern governments simply didn't have the power or technology to extend into every aspect of their subjects' lives even if they had wanted to. Look, if you want to argue that totalitarianism is simply any authoritarian non-democratic system be my guest, but that's not what it is commonly understood as. It really is quite sad that your mind is so narrow and inflexible that you only have space for one type of illegitimate violence in it (terrorism) and one type of non-perfect political system (totalitarianism). Thank God the world and most people's minds are more varied than yours.
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  #92  
Old 12-02-2005, 07:01 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

Yea nicky, it really pays to keep an open mind so that you can distinguish between different forms of violence and the nuances of differing forms of dictatorship. That way you don't discriminate against forms of violence and those dictatorships that you have sympathy with or are just too cowardly to confront.

How noble and sophisticated of you.
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  #93  
Old 12-02-2005, 07:08 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

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"The Koran advocates war and violence to convert unbelievers"

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No, it doesn't.

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"9.123 O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"

"9.5 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

But hey if they conquer you and you convert you get to live. What a deal!
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  #94  
Old 12-02-2005, 08:53 AM
mackthefork mackthefork is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

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" (the) massacre of civilian populations was always an integral part of US warmaking strategy"

How fair or unfair is this?


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Slightly unfair, vaguely understandable.

Mack
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  #95  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:02 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

[ QUOTE ]
Yea nicky, it really pays to keep an open mind so that you can distinguish between different forms of violence and the nuances of differing forms of dictatorship. That way you don't discriminate against forms of violence and those dictatorships that you have sympathy with or are just too cowardly to confront.

How noble and sophisticated of you.

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It is not a question of not confronting or having sympathy with forms of violence or repressive violence. But l;umping them altogether is absurd; I'd much rather live under some tinpot dictatorship that leaves you alone if you mind your own business than Stalinist Russia for example. I'd rather live in Egypt now than in Cambodia under Pol Pot. And I see a distinction between shooting someone for money and blowing up a cafe for political motives, despite the fact that both are wrong. Lumping them all in together is ridiculous.

I'll come back to your Quranic excerpts tonight or tomorrow; but let me quickly say firstly that context matters, and secondly that noone, not even MMMMMM [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img], believes that Islam or the Qur'an demand that everyone convert to Islam or be killed as you suggest.
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  #96  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:26 AM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

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"I think you ought perhaps to read some Orianna Fallaci "

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The only genuine fascist you've managed to refer to so far.

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If that is true, Nicky, I'll have to read her to see why. The interviews of her which I've read have been quite good, though. However on the basis of your statement I will now withdraw the recommendation.

Read Robert Spencer, instead;-)
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  #97  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:36 AM
The once and future king The once and future king is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

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totalitarianism is largely a 20th century phenomena

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You have just proved you don't know dik about history and therefore it is likely the rest of your opinions are bunk as well. How many examples of representative democracy do you think there are between Athens and the founding of the U.S.? Here's 2: The Althing of Iceland and the English parliament (oligarchy until 20th century there). How many others?

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Bluffthis, if you took some time to study Poli Sci you would find that totalitarianism is a very specific term refering to a very specific type of political state organisation, not just a word to bandied about to donate a lack of democracy or freedom.

The conditions for totalitarianism to be possible have not existed till the twentieth century.
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  #98  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:40 AM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

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Nicky, Islam has always been a totalitarian system, and Mohammad and his armies spread it by the sword.


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No, it hasn't - totalitarianism is largely a 20th century phenomena.


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Nicky, change the words to "totalitarian-like" or "fascistic" (instead of "fascist"). Quite simply, Mohammed and his armies killed or enslaved those who resisted their absolutist ideology and the rule of Islam; the luckier ones managed to avoid those fates and subsisted in a life of second-class legal status, forever consigned to having less rights and privileges than Muslims, and ever living under the threat of death should they not abide by their second-class status as dhimmis.

You may perhaps define "totalitarianism" and "fascism" as 20th century developments, technically speaking: but things of fairly similar nature were going on long before the 20th century.

Also, Nicky: the Taliban, and the Wahhabis, and the mullahs of Iran, and even bin-Laden and Zarqawi, generally are more correct in their interpretations of Islam, than are "moderate" Muslims. Don't believe it? Maybe reading the Koran you would change your mind.
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  #99  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:45 AM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

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I'll come back to your Quranic excerpts tonight or tomorrow; but let me quickly say firstly that context matters, and secondly that noone, not even MMMMMM , believes that Islam or the Qur'an demand that everyone convert to Islam or be killed as you suggest.


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Right, because the third choice for infidels (other than conversion of death), is to accept humiliating second-class legal status under Islam as dhimmis and to pay the (extortionate) special poll tax.
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  #100  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:45 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

[ QUOTE ]
I'll come back to your Quranic excerpts tonight or tomorrow; but let me quickly say firstly that context matters


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Always trying to find a way out of the plain meaning of the words aren't you? And like MMMMMM posted above and I commented on, the standard is not how you interpret it, but how Moslems do and act on it.
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