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  #81  
Old 12-02-2005, 04:30 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

"I think you ought perhaps to read some Orianna Fallaci "

The only genuine fascist you've managed to refer to so far.
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  #82  
Old 12-02-2005, 04:47 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

[ QUOTE ]
Nicky, Islam has always been a totalitarian system, and Mohammad and his armies spread it by the sword.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it hasn't - totalitarianism is largely a 20th century phenomena.

"A totalitarian state trys to control all aspects of its citizens lives. Some ancient Chinese rulers seem to have attempted this, but in the West, it is a distinctively modern form of government since it depends on huge government efforts to bring about. Classic examples of attempted totalitarian societies are France under the Committee of Public Safety in 1794, Nazi Germany, the Stalinist Soviet Union, Mao's China, and Kim's Korea. In such societies efforts were amde to bring all public groups under the ideological control of the state."

Totalitarianism

Islam does not seek total control over every part of people's lives, except perhaps in unique mdern extremist versions such as that of the Taliban (even they do not remotely compare to the degree of control under Hitler or Stalin) - it does not seek to control the economy for example beyond the odd tax (cue some libertarians denouncing all tactics as totalitarian, but never mind), it permits "opposition" to it in the form of other religions, it was formed in a time when the political party didn't exist; its texts contain no information on what type of political system should rule. And there is the key point; it is a religion, not a political philiosphy or system of government, except as used by distinctly modern Islamists for their own purposes, and cannot by definition be totalitarian.

I don't understand why the likes of you and BluffTHis have to use the tired old leftist tactic of denouncing everything of which you disapprove in terms of some prominent contemporary or near-contemproary phenonemena. Thus all violence you disaprove of is terrorism, and all systems of though you disapprove of are fascist (just like the Socialist WOrkers!). You can disapprove of these things if you want but using these terms renders them and the debate meaningless.

As for Islam being "spread by the sword", the various Islamic empires were spread by the sword, as are all empires including the ones they displaced and all the various Christian empires. Islam as a religion was largely not spread by the sword. Indeed it has reached places that no Muslim empire ever did eg south-east Asia.
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  #83  
Old 12-02-2005, 04:52 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

[ QUOTE ]
totalitarianism is largely a 20th century phenomena

[/ QUOTE ]

You have just proved you don't know dik about history and therefore it is likely the rest of your opinions are bunk as well. How many examples of representative democracy do you think there are between Athens and the founding of the U.S.? Here's 2: The Althing of Iceland and the English parliament (oligarchy until 20th century there). How many others?
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  #84  
Old 12-02-2005, 04:55 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
totalitarianism is largely a 20th century phenomena

[/ QUOTE ]

You have just proved you don't know dik about history and therefore it is likely the rest of your opinions are bunk as well. How many examples of representative democracy do you think there are between Athens and the founding of the U.S.? Here's 2: The Althing of Iceland and the English parliament (oligarchy until 20th century there). How many others?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lack of democracy is not remotely the same of totalitarianism. Totalitarianisn is an all-encompassing system that tries to regulate every aspect of life and is generally characterised by mass murder. The most prominent exampoles are Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia. It is not the same as dictatorship or a myriad of other political systems. But thanks for demonstrating your rudeness and ignorance in one shot.
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  #85  
Old 12-02-2005, 05:01 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: Where You Were, I Was

"THEY believe man's only rightful freedom is to worship Allah and to behave as prescribed in the Koran."

There's a bit of a contradiction there because the Qur'an gives people the freedom to worship other Gods, as has nearly ever Muslim-ruled state.
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  #86  
Old 12-02-2005, 05:08 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

"Next, if you get a Koran and read through and find all the imjunctions to Muslims, the instructions given to them, you will see a mountain of injunctions to fight the infidel, to subjugate the infidel, to force the world to conform to Allah's will."

Have you read teh Qur'an? I am reading it (haven't finished) and while their have been a very few verses about fighting (not about "subjugating the infidel") there certainly haven't been "a mountain" so far; the vast majority of it is about the unity of God, forgiveness, doing good deeds, the afterlife and Biblical stories. Your assertion that it contains numerous political injunctions that necessarily lead to "totalitarianism" is also wrong. Of its over 6,000 verses it contains about 200 "legal" verses, about punishments, inheritance and the like (it does not state whether or how these should be implemented politically); it contains zero advice on how governments should be run, people should be ruled etc.
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  #87  
Old 12-02-2005, 05:08 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

Yea, I'm sure the peasants and serfs of pre-modern times didn't really feel like their lives were regulated or that whether they lived or died was at the whim of the ruler or ruling class. And I am sure they felt that they would always receive fair and impartial justice.
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  #88  
Old 12-02-2005, 05:11 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: Where You Were, I Was

"the reason Islamic societies have through many centuries tended towards totalitarian rule, and today so clearly do"

There are no Muslim states today that could remotely be characterised as totalitarian. The only ones in recent history that arguably could have were Iraq (which was a secular, non-Islamic state), and Taliban Afghanistan.
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  #89  
Old 12-02-2005, 05:12 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

"The Koran advocates war and violence to convert unbelievers"

No, it doesn't.
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  #90  
Old 12-02-2005, 05:16 AM
nicky g nicky g is offline
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Default Re: The Crusades

"Maybe there is a great deal of debate about those things amongst ignorant Westerners, but not amongst imams and mullahs."

Who exactly you mean by "imams and mullahs" I'm not quite sure (Imams in Sunni Islam are simply prayer leaders), but I can categorically assure you that there is an enormous amount of debate on these topics amongst contemporary Muslim scholars.

"In Islamic ideology there is no distinction between the sacred and the secular. Hence there is no distinction between secular government and religious rule--it is all the same, and it is all to follow the will of God. Therefore government under Islam has an absolute or totalitarian aspect that cannot ever be truly shaken loose."

This is completely wrong. There are Muslims who advocate this kind of vision but to say that it is an uncontested integral aspect of Islam is incorrect. THere is no advice in the Quran on forms of government, religious or otherwise, and the "Islam as state and religion"/din wa dawla formulation is a modern one. The early caliphs' religious roles were unclear, and very quickly the caliphs ceased to have any real political power, so it is clear that this was also not true of most of Islamic history.
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