150/300 hand: neverwin vs kurosh

TStoneMBD · #1 09-14-2005, 07:47 AM

This hand is from a long time ago. Kurosh, oreogod and I were discussing hands from kurosh's 150/300 session months ago and we thought this hand would get some good conversation here. Let's please refrain from the jokes and focus on poker strategy instead.

To answer our debate, hero will be neverwin and villain is kurosh.

Ultimate Bet 150/300 Hold'em (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

kurosh · #2 09-14-2005, 07:50 AM

A bit of background on how I had been playing... I started the session out pretty passively. This is roughly 300 hands into it and I have started to ramp up my aggression. For a few hands at the beginning of the session, I would check/call the flop and check/call the turn or check/fold the turn. Later, I started check/calling the flop and check/raising the turn. I think he's picked up on that. I don't think that matters much here, but it could.

My preflop play is pretty standard, a bit too tight, if anything.

helpmeout · #3 09-14-2005, 08:09 AM

Looks pretty standard to me he figures a flush draw would have raised the flop, as would a king.

He is splitting the pot with an ace so no reason to bet the turn. Just induce a bluff on the river or get a King/PP to call.

Danenania · #4 09-14-2005, 08:15 AM

PF is obviously kind of screwy. I guess what matters about PF is if Kurosh has been making these kind of 3-bets often or if this is a special case.

The turn is the interesting street. Here we are always either ahead or splitting unless he's got an 8 or slowplayed KK/AA pf. Would he do this?

What does betting do for us? It seems mainly that we will be getting value out of K's and flush draws. This isn't a board where Neverwin should expect Kurosh to fold to a raise, so I doubt we are getting more than 1 BB from a flush draw, UNLESS Neverwin feels it's fairly likely for Kurosh to have absolutely nothing. I also assume Neverwin will now be folding his PP's <TT as well as any other weakish hands he may have peeled the flop with, unless, again, Kurosh has been playing so aggresively that NW would feel forced to call these down.

As for checking behind, it A.) Gives Neverwin a free 2-3 out draw with his K's and PP's, B.) Makes it more likely that a PP that would have folded the turn now calls a bet on the river, and C.) Saves 2 BB's the very rare times that we are losing.

My feeling is that we give up too much value against flush draws and K's to check, and that if checking behind will induce a PP to call a bet on the river, that the same PP may very well have called down from the turn anyhow. So there might be a very small image window where checking behind is right because it always gains an extra bet from PP's and always gets missed flush draws to bet, but it would be very difficult to deduce this, so the safe play is to bet.

ALL1N · #5 09-14-2005, 08:17 AM

Postflop looks good.

Preflop?? Against somebody playing "a bit too tight, if anything"? He must have a very high opinion of his postflop abilities or a very low opinion of Kurosh's.

kurosh · #6 09-14-2005, 08:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PF is obviously kind of screwy. I guess what matters about PF is if Kurosh has been making these kind of 3-bets often or if this is a special case.

The turn is the interesting street. Here we are always either ahead or splitting unless he's got an 8 or slowplayed KK/AA pf. Would he do this?

What does betting do for us? It seems mainly that we will be getting value out of K's and flush draws. This isn't a board where Neverwin should expect Kurosh to fold to a raise, so I doubt we are getting more than 1 BB from a flush draw, UNLESS Neverwin feels it's fairly likely for Kurosh to have absolutely nothing. I also assume Neverwin will now be folding his PP's <TT as well as any other weakish hands he may have peeled the flop with, unless, again, Kurosh has been playing so aggresively that NW would feel forced to call these down.

As for checking behind, it A.) Gives Neverwin a free 2-3 out draw with his K's and PP's, B.) Makes it more likely that a PP that would have folded the turn now calls a bet on the river, and C.) Saves 2 BB's the very rare times that we are losing.

My feeling is that we give up too much value against flush draws and K's to check, and that if checking behind will induce a PP to call a bet on the river, that the same PP may very well have called down from the turn anyhow. So there might be a very small image window where checking behind is right because it always gains an extra bet from PP's and always gets missed flush draws to bet, but it would be very difficult to deduce this, so the safe play is to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]You misread the hand. Hero is neverwin, not me.

kapw7 · #7 09-14-2005, 08:27 AM

I think UTG should C-R the flop with a King and C-R the turn with an ace. So I assume he has an ace.

What about hero raising the river in case UTG hassomething like a lower PP that he is bluff betting with? or even 99 (though he would have capped that one PF) He might call the raise sometimes with nothing b/c of the KK88A board.

Danenania · #8 09-14-2005, 08:28 AM

Damn. Well it still applies, right? Just switch the names around.

The sum of my post was that barring some very peculiar image issues, Hero should bet the turn, whoever he is. And actually now that I know that NW is Hero and you are villain, I like a bet even more because (no offense) I think you are a lot more likely to make a spewy turn checkraise with a flush draw than NW, not that I am at all qualified to make that judgment, just seems that way to me.

spamuell · #9 09-14-2005, 08:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What about hero raising the river in case UTG hassomething like a lower PP that he is bluff betting with? or even 99 (though he would have capped that one PF) He might call the raise sometimes with nothing b/c of the KK88A board.

[/ QUOTE ]

He'd probably cap pf with 99-QQ, I don't think he'd bet the river with those hands and what do you do if you get 3-bet? I think a river raise is really bad.

kurosh · #10 09-14-2005, 08:31 AM

Oh, that reminds me of something else important, neverwin had not been 3-betting me lightly in these sorts of positions PF.