QQ in Big Blind - Page 4

schwza · #31 11-09-2005, 04:34 PM

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We want AK to call

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no we don't.

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we definitely like the possibility of being on the 55% of this situation. AK is a dog to any pocket pair. Yes, it is a coin flip, but a slightly favorable coin flip. We can not expect to advance in tournaments if we avoid every coin flip situation. YOU WILL HAVE TO WIN MANY situations similar to this in order to advance. When do you suggest risking with coin flip situations? Only when you are short stack? Not good poker. I am thrilled if he turns over AK and if he hits the flop, then I tell him nice hand, nice call and good luck.

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assume villain has AK, and we push. do we want him to call?

he calls: there is 150 + 5200*2 + 75 in the pot, and we have a ~55% chance to win. we have a chipEV at the end of the hand of 5844.

he folds: we have our 5200, villain's 650, limper's 150, SB's 75. we have chipEV 6075.

you're telling me you'd like to give up chips in order to gamble. very dubious.

#32 11-09-2005, 04:43 PM

your missing the point. our ultimate goal is to take the pot down right then and there. IF he calls and turnks over AK, I am thrilled, you are comparing fold to call. We can not know what his cards are. I am comparing a call irregardless of what his holdings are, which in this hypothetical are AK - 45% to QQ - 55%.

schwza · #33 11-09-2005, 05:01 PM

you said:

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We want AK to call

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if in fact he has AK, we would prefer him to fold and not call. your quote means that if he has AK, we would prefer him to call and not fold.

there's another related question which i think you may be asking: if he does call, and it turns out his cards are AK, does knowing they're AK make us happy or sad? i'd say we're both a little relieved and a little disappointed. but that's not the question your quote was addressing.

#34 11-09-2005, 05:13 PM

if i know he has AK, I WANT him to call. I am willing to go to a coin flip to further my chances in the tourney. If i had AK and knew he had QQ, I would not want him to call being on the 45 side of a coin flip. this is just my opinion and in no way reflects the opinion of this site or the family members of this site.

honestly schwza, I see your point completely, and you do have a good point if cards are unknown, but using the hypothetical that we know his cards are AK, I like my 55%. So yes, I do want AK to call.

#35 11-10-2005, 08:07 AM

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Your example is the exact reason why I prefer to push preflop, especially when the alternative is the line that your friend chose.

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IMO making a pot-sized raise (i.e. to 2000) is best, pushing in the next choice but I don’t like it, calling is the worst option. It’s not a choice of Push v call.

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By the turn card the CO was priced in to call.

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?? – The CO was ahead after the flop. This is not the point of the discussion anyway. It's the pre-flop play I wanted to analyse.

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I can't fault a call but, like I said prior, I'm pushing this more often than just smooth calling. I might smooth call in some cases to vary my play or for deception purposes (like if I planned to pull a stop n go).”

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Like I said, I think calling is the worst option. 40% of the time an A or K will flop. What do you do then ?
And the time you have an overpair on the flop you will be doing well go get any more chips from villain.

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The cards in CO's hands combined with the flop aren't the point to analyze here

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Why are you saying this ?
That was never my stance – I discussed the opponent’s possible range of hands.
I have already analysed the AA or KK scenario. AQ, AJ, JJ, TT, 99 all fall into the same category if the CO faces a reraise pre-flop. I discussed AJ because that is what he actually had, but I would have said the same thing about AQ,99, etc. I don’t know what the CO would have done if he had AK – he may have pushed, called or folded – I don’t know.
I had not intended to post any more after my previous post. So I just told you the way the hand developed in case you were curious.

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Your thinking in this case is too results oriented

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A silly comment, and completely untrue.

beenben · #36 11-10-2005, 08:41 AM

Two thoughts:

Call; if no A or K on flop, bet about 800; if A or K on flop, check-fold.

OR

on the other hand, you have position now so raise to 1400. but I prefer the first choice b/c he's not likely to be stealing this early.

kuro · #37 11-10-2005, 10:49 AM

This is a very standard spot to reraise. You reraise to get it heads up, to take the lead in the hand because you're out of position, and for value because you are probably way ahead of what villain is opening with from late position.

Your stack is just too big to push here and to get a call from a hand that is very far behind you. You wan't to give villains in the hand a chance to push into you because they think you are restealing and that they have some folding equity. You of course will call if you get pushed into and you want to give villains a chance to call and see a low flop and to get it all in with 99-jj because they think there is a very likely chance that you have AK.

Don't play QQ scared.

JC_Saves · #38 11-11-2005, 07:37 PM

Overplaying QQ is a very big hole in a lot of people's games, and you might as well add AK to that mix.

When you have a lot of action in front of you from solid players reraising in this spot is a very poor play I think. You just want to call and hope to hit the flop or have it come rags. A lot of times I would plan to check raise on a flop of rags, and decide what to do based on the action.

If an A or K hits on the flop well then you just check it and hope to see the Turn for free or very cheaply. Playing too aggressively on flops with over cards, ie A or K is a quick way to lose your stack. With two other people seeing the flop you have to be a little cautious here. If you call and then have the person behind you reraise what does that tell you? You are beat is what it tells me, especially if the LP raiser calls or reraises, then you just muck it.

Tournaments are about avoiding huge confrontations for all your chips, unless you have the nuts obviously. If you have AA then obviously you shoot the moon here, perhaps even KK, but not QQ.

Unless you have a huge stack and have your opponents covered by a great margin, then pushing preflop in this situation is a horrendous move.

People that advocate pushing to try and get heads up or put the other guys to a tough decision are missing the point. How tough are you going to make it for the guy with AA or KK in this spot? Not very.

Don't overplay QQ, just call and leave them wondering what you have. When the Q hits the flop you make a ton of chips on this hand off of you AA or KK opponent, otherwise you can muck it in the face of a lot of action on a flop that misses you with overcards.

illegit · #39 11-11-2005, 07:51 PM

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People that advocate pushing to try and get heads up or put the other guys to a tough decision are missing the point. How tough are you going to make it for the guy with AA or KK in this spot? Not very.

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WTF? How often is the guy gonna HAVE AA or KK? Not very.

Keep pushing it.

JC_Saves · #40 11-14-2005, 07:53 PM

Given the read on this guy as being a solid player the odds of him having AA, KK, AK AQ are right up there.

Pushing preflop with your QQ is just a bad play. Why do you give the Late solid player no respect. He raised an UTG limper with more people to act behind him. You have to give him credit for something.

When you call in this situation you give yourself an out when the flop brings an overcard or TWO. You are still alive and kicking after you check/fold on that flop.

The only reason to push this preflop is if 1) LP raiser is an over aggressive player, 2) You have the LP raiser out chipped by alot, 3)You are a terrrible post flop player and don't know how to lay down hands.