4 to the nut flush

[Guthrie]

First orbit. UTG is a table coach and a jerk, but has been catching cards like crazy. I plan to raise the flop, but then it's raised and called in front of me. I put UTG on a pair, probably jacks. Do I raise or call?

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero ?.

[Vote4Pedro]

Rrrraise it

[JKDStudent]

[ QUOTE ]
Rrrraise it

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[POKhER]

Hit the nuts 35% of the time, 3+ callers so paying 25%.

+EV to re-raise?

Can someone confirm my calculations [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]?

RE-Raise anyhow.

[benneh]

[ QUOTE ]
Rrrraise it

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[Dave G.]

Raise that [censored] yo.

[Sightless]

Nut flush draw, backdoor straight draw + ace reraise that... sometimes you will miss that but for teh times you will hit it it will pay off

This is one (among many) I am struggling with: when to raise on the flop with a very strong drawing hand versus when to wait until the turn. Part of my problem is doing the math regarding what odds I am giving my opponents on the flop versus the turn. So, any help with these issues are greatly appreciated. That said, I'll give it a go.

I generally would raise here because I have 2-card nut flush draw plus a strong overcard (and backdoor straight), and the pot is large, so I want to knock out as many hands as possible. However, do I have a better chance by raising here on the flop or on the turn?

If I raise on the flop, SB's immediate pot odds are 10-to-1, perhaps not enough to call a gutshot ( but probably enough given implied odds?); UTG and CO are at 20-to-1. So I'm probably just looking at possibly knocking out SB -- who may be strong, though, judging from his flop raise.

If I call the flop (and if SB calls), then I will assume it will be one bet to me on the turn, and that a blank will fall. If I raise the turn, then it will be 6.5-to-1 back to the non-bettor(s), and now if the non-bettor(s) has a gutshot, he would be wrong to call.

Given my analysis, I wait until the turn to raise, and only call on the flop.

[Dave G.]

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I generally would raise here because I have 2-card nut flush draw plus a strong overcard, and the pot is large, so I want to knock out as many hands as possible.

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Whoa, slow down there. We don't want to knock anyone out here. We want all their money in our pot. This is a raise for value and possibly a free turn card, not to try and get anyone out. We are more than happy for everyone to come along because our flush will take them all down.

When you have a flush draw, you should almost never think about eliminating opponents. The only thing you should be doing is pumping it for value. If you are in early position and the player to your right bets, you never ever raise to face the field with 2. You call and hope someone else raises so you can 3-bet it.

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If I raise on the flop, SB's immediate pot odds are 10-to-1, perhaps not enough to call a gutshot ( but probably enough given implied odds?)

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Who cares if SB draws to his gutshot? Lets hope he hits it, because our flush will kick his ass and his stacks ass too.

Folding equity is the last thing you should be thinking about here. You want people to fold when you have a vulnerable holding. A flush draw is not a vulnerable holding.

[Vote4Pedro]

Get your money in on the flop when you have an edge, your odds are reduced with only one card to come(waiting until turn). I'm not a numbers guy, but I'm sure someone could explain it to you. Another advantage of raising is the possibility of a free card if you miss the turn.