tentative stats faq - please comment

[Robk]

see uncontaminated version below

[Robk]

amateur mistake

[sthief09]

wow thsi is 100 times better than anything I could've expected

[btspider]

the micro faq did this for those guys if you haven't seen that. it might have some stuff you can steal.

[Entity]

Hey Rob,

Great links. One thing: if you go to tinyurl.com, you can make a lot of these links smaller so that 2+2's crappy forum software can deal with them (and then you don't have to edit out the extraneous information in all of the links).

Rob

[Zygote]

this is an essential addition to help clean up these forums. thanks for your time and effort.

[mperich]

[ QUOTE ]
this is an essential addition to help clean up these forums. thanks for your time and effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Danenania]

Great work. I have only glossed over it and I'm already very impressed.

[sy_or_bust]

awesome job

[Robk]

any and all comments welcome. but in particular id like

1) someone to write a section on the stats i dont understand, Wtsd and W$sd. it doesnt have to explain them really just give a quick overview and maybe some links. Jeff W im looking in your direction here? of course anyone who wants to write the sections i did and include more (some) actual information is encouraged to do that too. any other stats you think should be included, except winrate and SD im going to put those in a general FAQ, not a stats one.

2) more links. i just scratched the surface here but i think they show the type of stuff im after.

3) my ideas about what stats "most posters" have are just random guess and wont be included when (if) i put this up. ill ask around to get some better answers.


vpip

while it is often debated, vpip has limitations as far as analyzing your play. It can be affected by too many variables to be relied on for drawing specific conclusions. Most of the time a detailed analysis of your stats broken down by position will be much more beneficial. That said, vpip can be useful in spotting problems so here are some general comments about it.

vpip must be considered in the context of how many people are seated at the table. Nate tha’ great posted these stats for his shorthanded play:

2-handed 55% vpip
3-handed 46% vpip
4-handed 36% vpip
5-handed 29% vpip
6-handed 25% vpip

when analyzing your vpip its best to filter your stats by number of players at the table and consider each individually, or at least look at the average number of players per hand stat located in the session notes tab.

many long-time winners at full 6 max tables (AP > 5) play with a vpip of almost 30% and believe this to be optimal. See for instance peter_rus’ stats here . others play a tighter style. Sthief09 posted a combined database of two 10-20 players here . Many winners have posted with even lower vpip figures, in the 18-20 range.

As nikla points out in the first linked thread your vpip will vary based on game conditions. If you are using game selection to choose primarily loose passive games, or the games with the largest pots, or no game selection at all, this will affect your vpip.

your ability to play well after the flop dictates the extent to which you can play marginal hands preflop. excellent players can play more hands than those who have less experience and skill. Players that play a small number of tables and have detailed reads on their opponents can play more hands than those who play a more formulaic style at a greater number of tables. And players routinely playing loose and weak opponents can play more hands than those in tougher games.

the larger the rake (relative to the stakes) the fewer hands are profitable.
pfr

Like vpip, your pfr will vary based on game conditions (first and foremost average players at the table). But as a rule, correct shorthanded play is very aggressive before the flop. General forum consensus is that your pfr should be in the 15-20 range at full 6max tables (AP > 5). A pfr < 15 is usually a leak.

The following threads are good resources for preflop hand selection:

back to basics

proper aggression level

25 questions

If you want a more comprehensive guideline, here are two charts compiled by HUSH posters. Disclaimers:
1. These threads are only guidelines- follow them closely at your own risk.
2. Its much better for you in the long run to understand hands and situations in their own right rather than following these guides.
3. Be sure to check out the discussion that follows.
4. These charts represent the opinions of the OP only and are not endorsed by general forum consensus.

MEBenhoe chart v2

King Yao raising standards

Folded BB to steal

Defending your BB is a complicated subject. No definitively correct range of defending hands can be given because the correct hands to defend with can vary a great deal based on small changes in the assumptions made about the situation. Most posters have “Folded BB to steal” in the range of 40-60. But some defend looser, and some defend tighter.

Here is an excellent

thread on blind defense. Here is David S.’ first post from that thread. It sums up many of the issues involved.

Here are some points:

1. Anything I say about this is without the use of computer simulations. Thus they may be off a little.
2. The reason HPFAP was written was simple. To make me money. The more people who win the more I make. If a piece of advice increases the best players EV by 3% while causing others to become losers, you probably ain't gonna read it in one of my books.

3. I said you should play 73 suited three handed and gave some mathematical justifications. I wouldn't be surprised if any two suited can be played.

4. It is the unsuited hands like Q5 that you will never see me recommending to the general reader. Because unlike suited hands, how it will do depends so much on how well you play and the skill and STYLE of your opponent.

5. As many have pointed out there are a whole slew of hands that are real close. Taken in a vacuum your EV is almost unaffected by your decision. When faced with these hands you need to consider five things.

A. Does volatility matter?
B. How well do you play?
C. What are his preflop raising requirements.?
D. How well and what style does he play post flop.
E. Will it be to your advantage or disadvantage for future hands if people see that you defend your blind a lot? (It can be to your disadvantage if it disrupts a tight image that helps you get away with bluffs.)

The answers to these questions can account for differences about whether to play at least twenty per cent of the hands.

Since hes referring to high stakes games, David neglects to mention the rake. At lower stakes it can turn many marginally profitable hands into losers, particularly in pots that are contested shorthanded. This effect can be quite pronounced up to about 5-10 or so.

Peter Rus has made some interesting posts on blind defense:

thread 1

thread 2

thread 3

Here is a thread featuring some excellent posts by backdoor in the face of much opposition (including Mason). For some reason the archives have muddled the posters names. But you can piece it together from the replies, mostly. (Backdoor ends his posts with “Regards”)

Some good work by Nate in this thread

Folded SB to steal

Most posters 2+2ers have this stat in the 75-85% range. Many of the Davids’ concerns above apply to SB defense as well. An additional wrinkle to SB defense is that the debate about how often to reraise is much livelier than that about reraising from the BB. One school of thought (including S + M) maintains that you should always reraise. But some very successful online players disagree. See here for some discussion

ASB

ASB is yet another difficult to analyze pokertracker stat. It covers your steal attempts from the CO, button, and SB which will all be different and are best analyzes seperately. Particularly so the SB. Peter_Rus made a very interesting post on this topic.

thread on not attempting to steal from the SB

General forum consensus is that ASB should be in the 30-40% range, again with exceptions.
What kind of animal is sublime?

Comments similar to those about vpip apply here, reprinted:

your ability to play well after the flop dictates the extent to which you can play marginal hands preflop. excellent players can play more hands than those who have less experience and skill. Players that play a small number of tables and have detailed reads on their opponents can play more hands than those who play a more formulaic style at a greater number of tables. And players routinely playing loose and weak opponents can play more hands than those in tougher games.

Heres a quick discussion of asb featuring peter yet again.

food for thought: how many hands does howard lederer open on the button (link contaminates all my urls for some reason, ill put it in later.)

A blind stealing experiment