2 questions

Okay if that is true prove it by mapping out how that is true and refuting what I said about the other hands taht might be involved. Just throwing around stuff like EV without explaining it useless. Besides it doesn't matter three betting isn't a bad play by any means but I'm just contending that you leave yoruself open on the turn in certain cases. I don't think you'll be able to refute that. Provide me reason why your anaylisis and anyone else that says raising the flop is the right play and I won't nessicarily disagree. I think the one things that are pretty irrefutable here is that the call preflop is questionable (not terribel just not a great call in the long run) and that there should be a raise put in here at some point durring the hand. And the I suck comment was so inspired, intelligent and witty it was amazing I hope you keep enlightening the poker world with your vast knowledge of insults. -Andrew

[bakku]

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Yea if you just decide to be reckless and not try to maximize value. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] The point is here that you have a lot of ways to improve but if you just keep raising the flop you may mis valuable bets on the turn as well as, I think the better play here (depending on how they play) I'll raise the turn even if it's a blank and it looks like no one was helped by the card such as a nine [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. And in this way if Axxx of diamonds is in the pot I have a chance if we both miss our diamonds on the river to make a bad queen fold or a middle pp such as tens or jacks or ace king. One of the other benefits of this play is if I do get called down taking control of the hand on the turn with a raise and get called on the river bluffing, the action I will recieve from these players from here on out on the turn will be ridiculous (usually), next time i'll make a similar turn raise play with the nut straight or whatever and I will pick up a lot more bets when they are drawing dead than i should. Obviously depending on how these people play. I think the turn is the way to go, unless these people keep betting no matter what with wahtever hands they have or are trying represent, and even then the better play might be to just wait till u hit a card and raise if they play that bad. -Andrew

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all i read was the first sentence. which is wrong.

[Entity]

ALL-IN.

[Entity]

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The hand I worry about is bigger diamonds which rapes me on the turn if i three bet it on the flop and the turn is a diamond and they check to me and i get check raised.

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A) Who said you have to bet the turn?

B) You've got a 12 outer against higher diamonds subject to a 9ish out redraw, so it's basically impossible to really be in tough [censored] here. You'd have to be up against a higher flush draw and an overpair/top pair for you to really be in a tough place, and the chances of that happening are slim enough in a 3-way pot that over the long run, you will be gaining a huge overlay on any additional flop estimate. This is NOT a hand to be looking to get away from at any point in time.

Pump. It. Up.

Rob

[tpir90036]

I think pre-flop stinks unless you have reason to think everyone behind you is coming along.

Flop seems like a 3-bet to me. I doubt you have any chance of winning without showing down the best hand but you have tons of equity and might be able to take a "free" one on the turn. I would much rather go that route than having to pay 2 (or more) BBs on the turn if the blind and the PFR get into a skirimish.

[Dazarath]

Muse, in the situation where you miss the turn, it'd be ideal to pump the flop and have it get checked to you on the turn. You'd be getting money in with an awesome draw while your equity is high, and you'd put in 0 bets on the turn when your equity has decreased. As for worrying about a higher flush, it happens. But you can't play poker always worrying when you don't have the nuts. If you have KQss on a 2-spade board, are you going to check/call when you hit your flush, just because someone might have a higher flush?

[shant]

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The hand I worry about is bigger diamonds which rapes me on the turn if i three bet it on the flop and the turn is a diamond and they check to me and i get check raised.

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Could you think of a worse case scenario for why you don't want to 3-bet? Here, I'll add a fun scenario. The turn is a black 6 and you get checkraised.

[newhizzle]

i dont hate preflop, i dont love it either

flop is a very easy raise

[newhizzle]

muse - do you realize that we are a mathematical favorite to hit a hand that is very likely to be a winner by the river?

[Victor]

i often wonder why my opponents do stupid things. i can never figure it out. usually i just put a not like, raises turn with oesfd 3way i a large pot and leave it at that. this is accurate of course, but i always like to know what my opponent is thinking bc it allows me to read his hands in similar and not so similar situations later.

thank you for this glimpse into why certain players raise the turn with little chance of picking up the pot after their equity has greatly decreased.

and, just to make sure i have you guys pegged correctly, do you often bet/3bet the turn into a pf raiser when you pick up a draw on the turn?