Hand Help

xwillience · #1 04-06-2005, 06:42 AM

Id like to use this hand as an example of a problem area i think i have. the problem is with scary boards and playing too passive or overy agressive. heres the hand...

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB folds.
--- this is where i am uncertain of the play... should i check hoping that someonewill bet their draw or bet their Ax and then i can re-raise or do i bet out to give the insight str8 draws worse pot odds right away?

Turn: (5.70 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 folds, CO raises, Hero calls.

River: (9.70 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

thanks for your help
results in white: CO has pocket 3s

Nick Royale · #2 04-06-2005, 06:44 AM

Perfect!

sungod · #3 04-06-2005, 07:00 AM

I think you did good.

DavidC · #4 04-06-2005, 07:18 AM

On the flop, inside straight draws are getting good enough implied odds to profitably call (at least, they would if you didn't have three of a kind, because that has a chance of becoming a full house after they make their straight, cutting down their chances).

You still have to bet here. In fact, you would go ahead and bet this even if one guy showed you his straight, because you're going to hit the full house about 1/3 of the time and there's four players.

Additionally, few players will bet a gutshot against the preflop raiser when there's an ace on the flop. (Edit: so you won't get the chance to checkraise, probably)

Even though the gutshots have correct odds to call you, you should still bet this flop, even heads-up, because you want to charge them to draw out on you.

Man, this sucks on the turn. You have to bet because your hand is strong, but you also have to call because you've got a chance to hit your boat afterwards and the pot's big enough to call.

I recommend folding the river though, unless you know that the raiser's crazy.

So, other than the river call I think you played it perfectly. However, there may be some guys on the board who think (and they could probably convince me if I let them) that the river call is good too.

--Dave (Captain Parenthesis).

Dave G. · #5 04-06-2005, 07:35 AM

This looks good to me. You have to bet this flop. Going for a check-raise is bad because you were the preflop aggressor. When you go for a check-raise, you need to have some idea as to who is going to bet the flop for you. Nobody else has shown any aggression so far so you don't know who (or even if) someone is going to bet. Getting this checked through would be awful.

When thinking about a check-raise, ask yourself who you are check-raising and decide if the play makes sense. If you don't think someone is going to bet after you check, bet yourself. Noone else raised preflop so you have no reason to think anyone is going to bet here, so bet yourself.

I'm not laying down a set of aces on the river. You might lose, but against an unknown opponent, I'd rather pay off than risk folding to a bluff-raise or two pair. Against a super passive opponent, I might fold.

turaho · #6 04-06-2005, 08:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB folds.
--- this is where i am uncertain of the play... should i check hoping that someonewill bet their draw or bet their Ax and then i can re-raise or do i bet out to give the insight str8 draws worse pot odds right away?

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, you need three criteria to slowplay:

1) Someone bets before you on the flop
2) There are players still left to act
3) The board is draw heavy

The first one seems obvious to me... you want a bet going in every round. Checking a hand like this after raising preflop screams "I'm going to check-raise". And you'll be crying yourself to sleep if this checks through. But when someone bets into the preflop raiser and you know you have them beat, a call is good because it'll encourage the aggressor to lead into you again on the turn, setting you up for the raise.

The second rule follows from this: You have the best hand right now and the odds are it will hold up. If you raise it now, you'll scare off money from the people behind you. But if you're HU, don't putz around. Raise him then and there. I guarantee that someone who bets into the preflop raiser will call you down to the river. Ram and jam.

The final part is probably the most contentious. If the board had come down A95 rainbow, I wouldn't bother with a slowplay. People are either going to have a piece of the flop and call two bets or they'll fold to a bet, so you might as well make your money now. On a coordinated board, calling two bets isn't going to scare anyone off their draw. Wait until the turn comes to make them face two BB cold.

elbuddha · #7 04-06-2005, 09:11 AM

I think case could be made for 3-betting the turn, even though MP2 dropped out.

10 outs to a boat or better = 22%. There needs be at least a 30%+ chance that CO raised with a hand we beat: any of a bluff or semi-bluff, a weak ace, 2pair, a smaller set, or a 'slowplayed' premium pocket pair. The only hands we're afraid of are those that actually contain a 3, and (except for the fact that this is nano-limit) we could generally rule out most of those except for 33, A3, maybe K3.

Could there be a 30%+ chance CO isn't raising with a 3? Well, a weak ace is unlikely due to 3 of them being accounted for. Set over set is rare. A crappy 2pair on this ragged board is unlikely due to the preflop coldcall (again, except for the fact that is is nano-limit). KK is possible but probably would have 3-bet preflop, and QQ/JJ are probably too scared of the A on the flop to raise the turn. That leaves a bluff/semi-bluff, the liklihood of which is very read-dependent.

So I dunno. Just something I was thinking about.

DavidC · #8 04-06-2005, 09:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think case could be made for 3-betting the turn, even though MP2 dropped out.

10 outs to a boat or better = 22%. There needs be at least a 30%+ chance that CO raised with a hand we beat: any of a bluff or semi-bluff, a weak ace, 2pair, a smaller set, or a 'slowplayed' premium pocket pair. The only hands we're afraid of are those that actually contain a 3, and (except for the fact that this is nano-limit) we could generally rule out most of those except for 33, A3, maybe K3.

Could there be a 30%+ chance CO isn't raising with a 3? Well, a weak ace is unlikely due to 3 of them being accounted for. Set over set is rare. A crappy 2pair on this ragged board is unlikely due to the preflop coldcall (again, except for the fact that is is nano-limit). KK is possible but probably would have 3-bet preflop, and QQ/JJ are probably too scared of the A on the flop to raise the turn. That leaves a bluff/semi-bluff, the liklihood of which is very read-dependent.

So I dunno. Just something I was thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Firstly, awesome post!

--

If you raise this HU, you'll have to call the cap, and then you won't be able to fold the river, so you're losing a lot by putting in that 3rd bet.

I really like the point about the weak ace with the three not being likely because of 3 of them being accounted for. Very very good idea.

That being said, he called the flop, and then raised the turn. He doesn't have a set unless it's a set of 5s and he put the hero on AK/AQ. He wouldn't have been slowplaying the 44 or something like that, because of the possibility of drawing out to the gutshot and the chance of getting more action in vs top pair right now.

--

What do you think of folding the river unimproved if you don't raise the turn? (I cry and call if it's been capped.)

I will say, though, that if he were slowplaying 44, it wouldn't be so bad, because with few players and the unlikelyness of the draw, he's pretty safe. I don't know if it would get more or less action than if he just flew out of the gate, though.

crownjules · #9 04-06-2005, 10:08 AM

Assuming CO is unknown, I would raise the turn, call a cap, and check/call the river UI.

CO could be raising with 22/44/55 or, however unlikely, Ax figuring that you have only a pair (LL players put you on AK more often then a high PP). Or he could be attempting to bluff you on a scary board. The only hands that beat you must contain a 3, and if they want to call your PFR with some ragged hand containing a 3 I'd be willing to payoff this one time where they make a hand. Even if he does have the 3, you have 10 outs to a boat or quads.

I think your hand is good enough of the time that a raise is better then calling.

elbuddha · #10 04-06-2005, 10:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think of folding the river unimproved if you don't raise the turn? (I cry and call if it's been capped.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Getting 10:1 on the call, I think there's at least a 9% chance I'm ahead. I call.