Good laydown, or wussy play?

[Paddy]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero folds, SB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB bets, UTG raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

[SnakeRat]

Good laydown, assuming they are typical you are behind.


Im not sure you have odds to draw to a K or club, especially since your flush is a pretty dubious out.

[kenewbie]

Good laydown in my book. Both of them are not bluffing after you raised the flop so you can safely muck.

I'd put SB on the nines and UTG on a flush.

k

[bisonbison]

I'd raise preflop. Since you didn't, I think this is fine. The turn bet and raise means you're behind one way or the other, the pot is not very big, and your outs are not the type that'll get you paid off big on the river.

[Paddy]

Really? Raise KQo utg+1? Not that I disagree, I just have trouble playing big unsuited connectors pf. KQ, KJ, AJ, etc. I'll raise next time.

[o0mr_bill0o]

I'd disagree here. At least in the games i've been playing (1/2 PP), I'll get a lot more good action in an unraised pot than I will in a raised one (i.e. lots of people staying in with K or Q weak kicker), and I don't want to push these people out of the pot. most people will raise with the hands that'll have you kicking yourself, but may very well just call if you open with a raise PF. Therefore, you'll also lose a little bit of information that you may need post-flop. when i raise i tend to do it just to switch things up a bit, or late position in order to show a bit of aggression and get a few more bucks in the pot. maybe you've been playing different games than me, though.

[SnakeRat]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd disagree here. At least in the games i've been playing (1/2 PP), I'll get a lot more good action in an unraised pot than I will in a raised one (i.e. lots of people staying in with K or Q weak kicker), and I don't want to push these people out of the pot.

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I raise KQo first in, and have NEVER had any problem getting action from junk hands.

[ QUOTE ]
most people will raise with the hands that'll have you kicking yourself, but may very well just call if you open with a raise PF. Therefore, you'll also lose a little bit of information that you may need post-flop. when i raise i tend to do it just to switch things up a bit, or late position in order to show a bit of aggression and get a few more bucks in the pot. maybe you've been playing different games than me, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

AK, AQ are the only hands to worry about here, but they are unlikely to be out there when you hold KQ.
If you magically know they are out there, just fold.

How does limping protect you from these rare domination situations?
The small information which could potentially be lost is vastly outweighed by people cold-calling with J7 soooted.

[HajiShirazu]

I used to think that I shouldn't raise with the average big card hands because I will kill my action if high cards flop. Oddly enough, after starting to raise with these hands, I have found that this is absolutely not a problem at all. An early position raise never seems to stop the guy with QTo from calling, and the QTo guy never seems to be able to get away from his hand if a Q flops. The guy with 77 never seems to be able to get away from his hand either, even with the K on the flop and me betting the whole way. And raising preflop more often, which is a natural result of raising more hands like KQ, AJ, and suited broadway cards, seems to further encourage these poor-playing opponents to make bad cold calls. In fact, lately online, I have found lately that most players, while not great, are fairly reasonable in their hand selection preflop. However, they don't understand things like hand domination or the gap concept and are usually willing to cold call with anything they would play normally. This is part of the reason why online games are still good even with somewhat tighter play.
Another reason to raise is so you can get it heads-up or 3 handed and bluff when an ace flops. Most people, even calling stations, will fold if you raised preflop and an ace flops, unless they have an ace.
In a loose game you still should raise with KQ is because you likely have the best hand but one that is likely to only make one pair, so you want to make people with crap suited cards and junk connectors pay for the chance of to run you down.
Sure sometimes your raise will get called by AQ, or you'll run into another big hand, and you'll flop top pair, won't be able to get away from it, and you'll lose bets. But you were going to play the hand anyway and the result likely would have been the same.

[Sent]

[ QUOTE ]

I raise KQo first in, and have NEVER had any problem getting action from junk hands.


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First in with KQo in EP, Im more liable to fold than raise. Even with one caller before me, I'd still probably fold this PF. Too weak?

-Sent

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I raise KQo first in, and have NEVER had any problem getting action from junk hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

First in with KQo in EP, Im more liable to fold than raise. Even with one caller before me, I'd still probably fold this PF. Too weak?

-Sent

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IMO, yes. I will alway play this from EP, and raise from MP or later.