God and order in the universe - Page 3

Girchuck · #21 03-14-2005, 02:53 PM

As a species, the humans are doomed to extinction.
There are many ways in which this extinction can occur, but it is extremely unlikely that the humans will exist several millions of years from now.
I think, we need to generalize the order of the Universe as not a home to humans per se, but a home to Intelligence. As far as we know there is more Intelligence in the Universe now than there was 15 billion years ago, and the general tendency in this time was always for Intelligence to increase.

Stu Pidasso · #22 03-14-2005, 04:21 PM

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I can't argue with your presumption that the universe is a gift to you-- that its "biggest function" is "to be used by humans."

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I don't presume to know what the universe's biggest function is. I was hoping to get this thread would give me a better understanding. The idea though, that the biggest function of the universe is to obey the laws of physics is most certainly hogwash.

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I can only ask that you tell me why human cosmic debris is any more relevant than, say, Jupiter

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I would not classify humans or jupiter as cosmic debris. Jupiter serves a very important purpose for earth and its inhabitants.

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From your logic, it would follow that the universe's function was to serve pre-humans before humans, pre-pre-humans before pre-humans, pre-pre-pre-humans before pre-pre-humans, and so on. As though humans are the center of the universe.

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The universe provides functionality for any one or any thing who uses it. I never said humans were the center of the universe, only that the human prespective is the most germain to this discussion. If Alf decides to chime in that will certainly change things.

Stu

FrankieFish · #23 03-14-2005, 04:41 PM

The idea though, that the biggest function of the universe is to obey the laws of physics is most certainly hogwash.

How can you make this assertion? Tell me one thing that supports it.

Stu Pidasso · #24 03-14-2005, 05:39 PM

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The idea though, that the biggest function of the universe is to obey the laws of physics is most certainly hogwash.

How can you make this assertion? Tell me one thing that supports it.

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The laws of physics govern how a system will operate, they are not a purpose or function of that system. It would have more sense(although it would still be wrong) if you said the universe had no function at all.

Stu

FrankieFish · #25 03-14-2005, 05:50 PM

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It would have more sense(although it would still be wrong) if you said the universe had no function at all.

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Okay. I'll switch to "no function" if it makes you happy. Now tell me why it would still be wrong.

dr_venkman · #26 03-14-2005, 06:12 PM

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The laws of physics govern how a system will operate

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Actually the operation of the system governs what we percieve the laws of physics to be, and then we take 'notes'.

When the system changes, then so will "the laws of physics". In that sense, you might as well call them laws, because in the definition of modern day "law" and justice, these things are arbitrary and biased as well. Scientists have no idea what the hell they're talking about; we might as call their theories "laws" then.

Anyway...

Beyond the useless existentialism of this post, and those like it (which I dearly despise), what would you do if you happen to discover the purpose the universe anyway.... patent it?

Not that I'm a fascist tyrant incapable of reverence for the philosophies, mind you. But what's the point in answering the mysteries of the universe? Until humanity figure out the little mysteries of traffic, pollution, nuclear arms proliferation, AIDS and taxes, I suggest we focus on the more immediate and pressing issues of our time.

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Stu Pidasso · #27 03-14-2005, 06:18 PM

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Okay. I'll switch to "no function" if it makes you happy. Now tell me why it would still be wrong.

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You are wrong because the universe has the function of providing a place for us to exist.

Stu

sexypanda · #28 03-14-2005, 06:31 PM

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Part of an argument about the existence of an intelligent God I once heard included the fact that the universe has gone from a chaotic state to an ordered state. Order is evidence of intelligence at work.

If there is no God, then it must be an intrinsic property of the Universe to order itself. Assuming this process goes on for as long as the universe exist its concievable that the end result would be something that is infinitely ordered. Would something that is infinitely ordered be God?

Stu

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I'm no physicist but I think you're very wrong here. Entropy, one of the most fundamental physical laws, dictates that as time passes the universe becomes more and more chaotic.

Regarding this..

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No, but going from the big bang to conscience people is.

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Here's a quote from an article by John Rennie from Scientific American:

"More important, however, the Second Law permits parts of a system to decrease in entropy as long as other parts experience an offsetting increase. Thus, our planet as a whole can grow more complex because the sun pours heat and light onto it, and the greater entropy associated with the sun's nuclear fusion more than rebalances the scales. Simple organisms can fuel their rise toward complexity by consuming other forms of life and nonliving materials."

I believe that the moment preceding the big bang was when our universe was in its most ordered form, so that perhaps could be "God", but not vice-versa.

FrankieFish · #29 03-14-2005, 06:53 PM

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Okay. I'll switch to "no function" if it makes you happy. Now tell me why it would still be wrong.

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You are wrong because the universe has the function of providing a place for us to exist.

Stu

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Then I'll switch to "its function is to execute the laws of physics."

Stu Pidasso · #30 03-14-2005, 07:16 PM

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Beyond the useless existentialism of this post, and those like it (which I dearly despise), what would you do if you happen to discover the purpose the universe anyway.... patent it?

Not that I'm a fascist tyrant incapable of reverence for the philosophies, mind you. But what's the point in answering the mysteries of the universe? Until humanity figure out the little mysteries of traffic, pollution, nuclear arms proliferation, AIDS and taxes, I suggest we focus on the more immediate and pressing issues of our time.

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This whole entropy business kinda quashed any real discussion, since then its been mostly about ego. This is the pyschology forum after all.

There is one thing I have concluded(rightly or wrongly) from this thread. Its seems that you begin to stop looking at things from a human prespective once you take God out of the equation.

Stu