1: Good 3-bet? 2: Good river check?

Boolean · #1 12-05-2005, 09:44 PM

My thoughts with this three-bet was to push out most of the other drawing hands, lows and so forth so as to prevent me from being quartered. Good play? It also could get me the whole pot if the person is such a donk that he'd raise a low draw here. I also have a freeroll to the nut flush to scoop the pot if in case he also has QJ

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, BB calls.

River: (13 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $0.45 (All-In), Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.80 BB

--

This hand, how's the river check? I'm out of position, and if I'd get raised, I've pretty much lost the pot. Thoughts?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Omaha/8 (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls $0.15 (All-In), MP2 calls, CO folds.

River: (8.80 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 8.80 BB

#2 12-05-2005, 11:34 PM

Take this all with a huge grain of salt since I play PL almost always.

On hand #1 - you've got the high all but locked up. I think it's a matter of balancing the concern that somebody will catch the low with getting more money into the pot. I think the 3-bet is probably the wrong play though. The BB ought to have a low draw so why not try to drag along the others to get more money into the pot and the possiblility of extra bets on the river if two players catch their low?

Hand #2 - I've never had a good feel for when to value bet and when to check. I probably would check/fold this river since it's a run at what could be a dry pot, the all-in player might have the flush.

benwood · #3 12-05-2005, 11:39 PM

You played it fine.The por is plenty big on the turn to re-raise to put pressure on any low draws &/or sets & 2 pr.hands.

Boolean · #4 12-06-2005, 12:26 AM

I'm not sure if this a good play for Omaha as it is for other games, but how about bet/fold as line for the river here?

benwood · #5 12-06-2005, 01:16 AM

Hand 1:The decision on the turn is whether to "pull" or to "push".A pull action is best when the pot is small &/or they have no chance to draw out on you.A push action is correct when the pot is deemed to be large enough that you will receive a larger EV by protecting yourself against losing it rather than trying to suck in additional bets.
On this particular hand,if you just call,the 2 players behind you will be getting an 11 to 1 return from the pot on their draws when they call the raise.But,if you re-raise,the first caller will get only 6 1/2 to 1(assuming no cap,in which case he gets worse odds).If he then folds,the second caller only gets 6 1/2 to 1 odds also.If one of these callers has a set,he is 35 to 9(almost 4 to 1)against hitting it.If one of them has 2 pairs,he is 19 to 3(a little over 6 to 1)against hitting hitting this.The true odds are actually a little worse than this,because they could easily be drawing at some of the same cards.
Also,the raiser may not have a low,or it may get counterfitted,and the re-raise may keep somebody from getting 1/2 of the pot with a weak low draw.This is a very substantial reason for re-raising by itself.
I hope that this will help you realize that it is much better to protect your hand by raising here. good raise. Ben.

Buzz · #6 12-06-2005, 06:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts with this three-bet was to push out most of the other drawing hands, lows and so forth so as to prevent me from being quartered. Good play? It also could get me the whole pot if the person is such a donk that he'd raise a low draw here. I also have a freeroll to the nut flush to scoop the pot if in case he also has QJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Boolean - Your logic makes sense. (Except I'd be more worried about getting halved by someone making low on the river than getting quartered).

I'm trying to figure what BB holds to check on the first betting round, check/call on the second betting round, and then check-raise on the third betting round after the ace of hearts appears on the turn. Doesn't make any sense. (Maybe that's the idea, or maybe BB suddenly wants to get all-in for some reason largely unrelated to the cards involved on this deal).

Seems like the most likely possibilities for BB might be (1) a flopped straight that BB decided to slow play on the flop, maybe with the queen, jack of spades, or (2) an uncounterfeit able low draw (234X). (3) But BB could also have a set, or (4) nothing. Whatever. (Doesn't seem like a check raise with any of those would be a particularly shrewd or even sensible thing to do, but maybe I'm missing something).

At any rate, seems like you have played fine up to this point. And now what to do? Call or re-raise? Tough decision.

If you just call, surely UTG+1 and MP3 will call the raise, and might call another bet on the river. If you make it a double bet (with possibly an all-in raise coming from BB), you make it tougher for UTG+1 and MP3 to continue.

You should like to pull in opponents with nothing but non-nut flush draws. You should also like to pull in opponents with non-nut flopped straights. But you should like to either push out or charge anyone else for drawing - and you should at least want give anyone else worse odds for continuing.

And that's the way it is a lot of the time with a hand such as yours and a board such as this. You should want to get your opponent's money in the pot, but how much will they stand for? And you never know for sure.

This time you raise against these particular opponents and they both fold, but next time different opponents might both call - or maybe these same opponents will both call. It's just hard to say.

At any rate, I think the raise was fine.

[ QUOTE ]
This hand, how's the river check? I'm out of position, and if I'd get raised, I've pretty much lost the pot. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand #2: Another close decision. What to do here depends a lot on what you think your opponents would do with a non-nut flush. If there's a chance one of your opponents would fold a baby flush to a bet, then you do better by betting the river. Also if an opponent might pay off with two pair or a set, then a bet seems the best move.

It also depends on how likely your opponents would be to draw to a non-nut flush after this flop. If all five of your opponents who saw the flop would play any flush draw after a flop like this one, then there's about a 70% chance one of your opponents has made a flush on the river.

In a tough game, it also depends on how your opponents think you would react to a raise. If you usually bet with anything in these situations but then fold if raised, an opponent might raise as a bluff, or with a baby flush.

It also depends on what your opponents put you on for your betting. If someone with a non-nut flush thinks you've been betting a flopped straight all along, then you're likely to get raised.

What to do here seems kind of a toss-up in my mind, and it's fine to vary your play from one time to another. Makes you harder to read. Thus I'd bet this some times and check others.

Buzz

benwood · #7 12-06-2005, 11:49 AM

Boolean.Ijust got a chance to read your 2nd hand this A.M.I see that Buzz has responded to your posts since I was here last.His advice seems solid here,as always.Here on the forum,it's hard for a new player to know what to do when he see's many conflicting opinions.All I can tell you is this.When in doubt,stick with Buzz. Good luck to you.Ben

#8 12-06-2005, 12:35 PM

Both hands were played well, IMO. First hand, the only thing your could have done differently was just call so the other player would tag along, but if he was playing a low then you are risking half of pot, so making it expensive for him makes a lot of sense.

Second hand, you have to fear the flush here, and your opponents did not make mistakes chasing. There was no low, so they had better odds than they needed to stay in. I am surprised they checked after you. If you won the hand, be glad your opponents were too cowardly to bet.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if this a good play for Omaha as it is for other games, but how about bet/fold as line for the river here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but remember that you are on low limit table, you have to be reluctant to bet when you opponents have been acting like they have a flush-draw and a flush hits. Maybe a baby flush folds, but I doubt it. Look at it this way, if you raise, there is a strong possibility that only a flush would call. On a weak table, the baby flush might say (even after drawing for it) maybe its not good, and check behind you. It's a close call, but on a loose weak low limit LO8 table, I personally would try to check. Now, this is all said without any read on your opponents.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode