Chase the low draw?

Boolean · #1 12-06-2005, 12:22 AM

I've found that I'm not sure how to deal with these types of hands. What kind of odds do you look for when you have just a backdoor draw to the nut low, or would you fold it regardless? Hand in question:

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP3 raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, SB calls, BB folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls, SB calls.

When I made my low, I decided to go for a check-raise here, figuring I probably have half the pot at this point. Thoughts?

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

benwood · #2 12-06-2005, 01:52 AM

3rd:You're only going to backdoor this low about 1 time out of 6, & then you're only going to get 1/2 of the pot(or maybe only 1/4),but it's not all or nothing.If you miss on the first card,you can throw your hand away.On the flop,you're fetting 12 to 1 from the pot to peel one off,& nobody's behind you to possibly pop it.Looks right to me.
River:I like the check-raise.Looked like a good chance that MP1 was going to bet,& your position was perfect.Well played,imo. Ben.

#3 12-06-2005, 01:59 AM

I don't play much limit, but I believe the correct line is fold preflop (maybe call, right conditions), fold flop, fold turn, and call river.

#4 12-06-2005, 02:25 AM

I play pot limit only now but started at limit. Fold the flop. The only thing thats looks good to you is the Ace but the problem is you have a high board that you will have to chase to the river for your low. This will kill you in pot limit as well as limit, it will just take a little longer in limit to clean you out. Oh, and call the river.

#5 12-06-2005, 02:30 AM

I wouldn't even play this hand. I don't like playing hands that need somewhat major help and even if/when you get it you could still take a beat kinda easily.

benwood · #6 12-06-2005, 04:30 AM

Folding the turn with this is absurd.

benwood · #7 12-06-2005, 04:35 AM

On the river,the call is best if you don't like money.

benwood · #8 12-06-2005, 05:00 AM

Hand 1:Yes,6432 single suited is a marginal hand but not unplayable.It plays considerably better in limit than no-limit.In Bill Boston's book,he shows that it takes some part of the pot over 24%of the time in a 10 handed game.Not bad.

Buzz · #9 12-06-2005, 08:14 AM

Boolean - I think you want to see the flop as cheaply as possible with this starting hand. Ideally you want to see the flop for one small bet. That's because whether to continue or not is highly dependent on the flop, and because pre-flop raises tend to come from hands with better low possibilities (A24X, A35X, etc.). You might raise yourself with the hand if you raise a lot with A2XY (to disguise raises with A2XY), but you should generally hate to limp and then call a raise.

Trouble is, from MP1, you can't very well tell if there will be a raise behind you. One could make a good case for folding your 2d3d4h6d hand before the flop from MP1.

The above written, in a passive game, (rightly or wrongly) I'd probably limp and hope for the best from MP1 holding 2d3d4h6d. (But you can make a good case for folding 2d3d4h6d from mid-position).

Well... you did limp and then got raised. Ugh. At any rate, you call the raise and the raising ends there. Fine.

Now the flop comes with good news and bad news. The good news is there's an ace on the flop. The bad news is there are only 195 two-card combinations possible on the turn and river that make you the nut low. That's out of 990 possible two-card combinations. (Never a guarantee I counted perfectly - but 195 seems about right).

There are also some two-card combinations that make a non-nut low for you, but after a flop where you have no reasonable chance at high, you don't really want to count back-door non-nut low draws as worth much.

At any rate, after this flop you have about one chance in five of making the nut low for half (or less) of the pot. It's not a good enough chance to continue. The point is, when all you have is a backdoor low draw, you simply don't have favorable odds to continue.

Therefore you should fold after this flop.

But you continue and the turn is favorable, so again you continue. Fine. (Whatever you should have done on the previous betting round is water over the dam).

[ QUOTE ]
When I made my low, I decided to go for a check-raise here, figuring I probably have half the pot at this point. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

After two checks with just one player yet to act, I think betting directly is your best course of action, better than going for a check-raise. You have a better chance of scooping if you bet directly (with everybody folding to your bet - happens quite a bit, actually).

More likely you will get half the pot three times out of five and a quarter or sixth of the pot two times out of five - (something like that).

Buzz

#10 12-06-2005, 09:58 AM

My VPIP is ~ 20%, which means I am on the tighter side of selecting starting hands (I play only limit, either 5-10 or 10-20).

I would play 2-3-4-6 from any position for one bet. I would never fold this hand unless I was sure I was going to have to play it for more than that, and even then I probably would play it unless I had reason to believe that most of the aces were out.

The hand has too much scoop potential on a low flop (especially suited, as yours is). Just play it well post-flop. That means folding on this flop without hesitation. Chasing like this is the expressway to losing.