what affects roi the most?

[wickss]

[ QUOTE ]
in other words, I don't even understand why ROI would have a theoretical maximum other than 500% (ie taking 1st every time).

[/ QUOTE ]

355%

[Nicholasp27]

all of his roi won't be from earlier

say all of those players that do this are 15% roi players

now if one of them suddenly forgets how to play correctly on the bubble, their roi will drop to -9%...


roi is affected the most by bubble play, not early level play...but the difference in a good and a great player is not bubble play...but the difference in good and great player's roi may be 10%...the difference in good and bad player's roi (if bad player isn't bad early levels but SUCKS at bubble) can be 20+%

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
now if one of them suddenly forgets how to play correctly on the bubble, their roi will drop to -9%...

[/ QUOTE ]

this is utterly completely wrong. holla

[Nicholasp27]

i'm assuming this is an average player who only excels in bubble play, but is absolutely average in every other way

so if they become average in bubble play, then they become an average player, who should see -9% (lose the rake) over the long run

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm assuming this is an average player who only excels in bubble play, but is absolutely average in every other way

so if they become average in bubble play, then they become an average player, who should see -9% (lose the rake) over the long run

[/ QUOTE ]

if every other player is a 15% roi player the person who is merely an avg player that doesnt have bubble skills anymore will be much worse off than -9%. holla

[Nicholasp27]

oh, i see

u are working within the contrived example that had a population of players

i was meaning that a player who is great on bubble but average in earlier play could put up 15% roi...but if his bubble play is average it's -9%

but that's within the general population

[Nicholasp27]

and that he'll be even worse off within fnord's example just shows even more how bubble play affects roi

if we say that 215ers are, in general, better at the bubble, then the loss of good bubble skills for a player would drop them down more than the loss of good bubble skills for a player in lower levels

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
oh, i see

u are working within the contrived example that had a population of players

i was meaning that a player who is great on bubble but average in earlier play could put up 15% roi...but if his bubble play is average it's -9%

but that's within the general population

[/ QUOTE ]

the whole 15% roi thing by perfect bubble play.. is not possible unless u have perfect itm play as well.. even at the 22s. holla

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
all of his roi won't be from earlier

say all of those players that do this are 15% roi players

now if one of them suddenly forgets how to play correctly on the bubble, their roi will drop to -9%...


roi is affected the most by bubble play, not early level play...but the difference in a good and a great player is not bubble play...but the difference in good and great player's roi may be 10%...the difference in good and bad player's roi (if bad player isn't bad early levels but SUCKS at bubble) can be 20+%

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the conditions stated in my post, all ROI above the normal average (negative) ROI is from early play (assuming he plays perfectly post the 50/100 level). You may argue that perfect play is impossible in practice, and that mistakes are more costly on the bubble, but I picked a contrived set of assumptions that are theoretically possible to avoid this sort of side tracking.

If you have exactly zero comparative advantage at a level, that level contributes exactly zero to your expectation (and therefore ROI).

I am not arguing that if you play inoptimally, fixing leaks in bubble/post bubble play will have the greatest impact on your ROI. However, if all your opposition plays these levels optimally, the only place to make money is in the earlier rounds (and then only if they do not play these levels optimally).

What is optimal with bigger stacks is highly debatable. What is optimal with small stacks based on optimal play by opposition is a tractable game theory problem, so facing fields that play optimally or close to it in short stack situations is not so far fetched, and I agree with raptor and others that your ROI can come mainly from early level play when your opposition plays very well later, as many say is the case in the 200's.

[stupidsucker]

I find it extremly amusing that the majority of people chose middle play, but there is hardly any argument for it in the meat of this thread.

I chose it, because it seemed to be getting me the most. The bubble is easy to play with a stack imo, and getting a stack is the hard part. knowing when to push during level 4-5 seems so very very key to me, because the pushes/calls are not nearly as B&W when the blinds become higher. Perhaps I am finding that level 4-5 are just hard for me.