Dear Christians: Your child doesn't believe in Jesus. Now what?

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that people pray in order to hope that God puts the child in a situation in which the child can see more clearly. This might be even be a difficult situation. The child still has a choice to accept or reject, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is beginning to resemble a probabilistic model of choice.

God obviously doesn't determine for us whether we believe or don't believe, according to most Christian beliefs. Yet, some do and some don't. If it is impossible to determine which choice a person is going to choose, then I think we have to acknowledge the presence of a random element here.

However, I think it is also reasonable to assume that some people are more likely to believe than others. I'm sure some kind of competant demographic study would suggest that people are much more likely to be believers if they come from Christian homes, and less so if from other homes.

These factors are beyond our control. It is reasonable to hold God as responsible for them.

I think that what you are suggesting is that an intervention on God's part might increase the chances for the child to believe. Perhaps he has a 40% chance of eventually believing if he lives an easy-street life, and a 75% chance of believing if he experiences some kind of tragedy.

Is this an accurate analysis?

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that people pray in order to hope that God puts the child in a situation in which the child can see more clearly. This might be even be a difficult situation. The child still has a choice to accept or reject, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is beginning to resemble a probabilistic model of choice.

God obviously doesn't determine for us whether we believe or don't believe, according to most Christian beliefs. Yet, some do and some don't. If it is impossible to determine which choice a person is going to choose, then I think we have to acknowledge the presence of a random element here.

However, I think it is also reasonable to assume that some people are more likely to believe than others. I'm sure some kind of competant demographic study would suggest that people are much more likely to be believers if they come from Christian homes, and less so if from other homes.

These factors are beyond our control. It is reasonable to hold God as responsible for them.

I think that what you are suggesting is that an intervention on God's part might increase the chances for the child to believe. Perhaps he has a 40% chance of eventually believing if he lives an easy-street life, and a 75% chance of believing if he experiences some kind of tragedy.

Is this an accurate analysis?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I think that while its not individually about statistics, it could be quantified statistically using a given population.

Thanks for your defense on the prior thread. It got out of hand. I think it is better to use the following scenario to illustrate:

You have a son that is addicted to crack cocaine. You have gone to every possible length to prevent it and to cease the addiction. Your child is 19 years old and you can not commit him to rehab. He will not go voluntarily. You are deeply sorrowed, believing your child will die if nothing can be done. You pray about the situation and God comes down to give you a choice:

A) God does not intervene and the child goes on "enjoying" his life. In three and a half years, he will OD and die.

B) Officer Barbary will go for his usual midnight visit to the doughnut shoppe. The Krispy Kreme machine will break and the place will not have any of the hot Krispy Kremes that Officer Barbary loves. As such, he will leave the doughnut shoppe with a cup of java in hand and will commence driving around to kill some time. Since he is on break, he decides to go look at the progress of the new mall to kill time. He sees your son at the construction site receiving a baggie from the dealer. He calls for backup and the arrest is made. You get your son an attorney who gets him a deal...4 months in jail on good behavior and a suspended sentence pending good behavior. Your son goes through rehab and enrolls in college, gets his degree, gets a nice job, gets married, and has a nice life.


Which do you choose? Obviously you don't want your son to go to jail, but that was the only way to send him the message.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your defense on the prior thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome. I'm mean to idiots, not necessarily to Christians [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. I think that while its not individually about statistics, it could be quantified statistically using a given population.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosophically, this is a major problem. If free will has a random element, but is also influenced by other factors thus making it probabilistic, then I believe that it follows logically that God is unjust.

Here is why:

Obviously a deterministic model would prove God's injustice. If people were created with the knowledge (and therefore, the intent) on God's behalf that they would end up in one place or the other with no hope for intervention, then God is certainly unjust. This would be akin to God dealing someone the losing hand in poker; the man has no hope to win, and is destined to lose.

But there are still problems with a probabilistic model. Some people, through no fault of their own, are far more likely to believe in Jesus, while others are not given such a chance. In the scenario you described, it seems that some drug addicts are "unlucky" and don't encounter a series of incidents that cause them to be as likely to wisen up and accept Christ as other drug addicts who did get to survive traumatic experiences. Neither one has control over their circumstances; only God does.

Thus it would seem that God deals some of us AA, while he deals others 72o.

If this is the case, then God cannot be called just.

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your defense on the prior thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome. I'm mean to idiots, not necessarily to Christians [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. I think that while its not individually about statistics, it could be quantified statistically using a given population.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosophically, this is a major problem. If free will has a random element, but is also influenced by other factors thus making it probabilistic, then I believe that it follows logically that God is unjust.

Here is why:

Obviously a deterministic model would prove God's injustice. If people were created with the knowledge (and therefore, the intent) on God's behalf that they would end up in one place or the other with no hope for intervention, then God is certainly unjust. This would be akin to God dealing someone the losing hand in poker; the man has no hope to win, and is destined to lose.

But there are still problems with a probabilistic model. Some people, through no fault of their own, are far more likely to believe in Jesus, while others are not given such a chance. In the scenario you described, it seems that some drug addicts are "unlucky" and don't encounter a series of incidents that cause them to be as likely to wisen up and accept Christ as other drug addicts who did get to survive traumatic experiences. Neither one has control over their circumstances; only God does.

Thus it would seem that God deals some of us AA, while he deals others 72o.

If this is the case, then God cannot be called just.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that anyone can look at life as it exists on earth and determine that it's fair. I think that is made clear in the Bible. I certainly hope, however, that the determination of one's place in the afterlife is fair.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly hope, however, that the determination of one's place in the afterlife is fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it is not...?

If we are to conclude that God assigns different probabilities for our free will to take to, how can we call him a just god?

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I certainly hope, however, that the determination of one's place in the afterlife is fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it is not...?

If we are to conclude that God assigns different probabilities for our free will to take to, how can we call him a just god?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we can. It's certainly a scary thought. My belief system (and this is an extremely personal belief system based upon Christianity but not on a particular sect or denomination) is based upon a just God. This is not in congruence with every Christian denomination's interpretation of God. This almost gets into the predestination/free will argument. I can't buy into predestination because I can't reconcile an all-loving God with that concept. I think the two would have to be mutually exclusive of each other.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I certainly hope, however, that the determination of one's place in the afterlife is fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it is not...?

If we are to conclude that God assigns different probabilities for our free will to take to, how can we call him a just god?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either:

A) People follow a probabilistic model and God is unjust.

or

B) People follow a different model and God is just.


The problem is, which model is there for people to follow?
Random/pure free will: All human beings are given the same probability of accepting Christ.
Problems: This is clearly impossible. Different circumstances, such as family's religion, or as you've described, rock-bottom experiences, influence the probability of one's decision. Furthermore, if this were the real model and nothing could alter the probability of one's decisions, God is powerless and prayer is worthless.

Deterministic: All things are pre-determined due to causality.
Problems: This would suggest that God creates human beings with the foreknowledge and intent of their final destination. God cannot be considered just in this situation.



What other model is there?

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I certainly hope, however, that the determination of one's place in the afterlife is fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it is not...?

If we are to conclude that God assigns different probabilities for our free will to take to, how can we call him a just god?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either:

A) People follow a probabilistic model and God is unjust.

or

B) People follow a different model and God is just.


The problem is, which model is there for people to follow?
Random/pure free will: All human beings are given the same probability of accepting Christ.
Problems: This is clearly impossible. Different circumstances, such as family's religion, or as you've described, rock-bottom experiences, influence the probability of one's decision. Furthermore, if this were the real model and nothing could alter the probability of one's decisions, God is powerless and prayer is worthless.

Deterministic: All things are pre-determined due to causality.
Problems: This would suggest that God creates human beings with the foreknowledge and intent of their final destination. God cannot be considered just in this situation.



What other model is there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I have reconciled it. I have no scientific basis for my answer...just a theory that there may be an alternatives that neither are discussed in religious texts nor made implausible by relgious texts. I relay such a possibility of a just God that allows free will here (This was in reply to Lestat):



Just One Possibility

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I have reconciled it. I have no scientific basis for my answer...just a theory that there may be an alternatives that neither are discussed in religious texts nor made implausible by relgious texts. I relay such a possibility of a just God that allows free will here (This was in reply to Lestat):

Just One Possibility

[/ QUOTE ]

You suggest that God creates situations that "balance out" people's probabilities of accepting Christ. A born-and-raised drug addict may get a second chance that a born-and-raised Christian does not.

The problem is empirical. Most people born Christian die Christian. Most people born Muslim die Muslim. Obviously it is impossible to figure out what the exact probabilities are, but there is little question that some people are, quite simply, more likely to accept Christ than others.

This reverts back to the problem of the probabilistic model.

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I have reconciled it. I have no scientific basis for my answer...just a theory that there may be an alternatives that neither are discussed in religious texts nor made implausible by relgious texts. I relay such a possibility of a just God that allows free will here (This was in reply to Lestat):

Just One Possibility

[/ QUOTE ]

You suggest that God creates situations that "balance out" people's probabilities of accepting Christ. A born-and-raised drug addict may get a second chance that a born-and-raised Christian does not.

The problem is empirical. Most people born Christian die Christian. Most people born Muslim die Muslim. Obviously it is impossible to figure out what the exact probabilities are, but there is little question that some people are, quite simply, more likely to accept Christ than others.

This reverts back to the problem of the probabilistic model.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you eventually show all people the same truth and allow them an eternity to accept it. You see, you are plunged into hell. You, being a logical thinker, are probably going to recall that you just died. You conclude you are in hell. You realize that God does exist. You call upon Christ and he lifts you out of hell. You are extremely thankful for his eternal mercy. This is not a "balancing out." It simply extends the opportunity for salvation beyond the grave. You could get out of hell through God's grace at any time.