Back to basics: HU with a crappy pair - Page 2

Nytecaster · #11 09-07-2005, 06:53 AM

Middle position could have so many hands that it's a debatable raise (on the flop) but probably will win enough to justify it. Turn fold looks solid as I don't see you winning this hand without another way to win like a backdoor flush draw.

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No notes and obviously just posted, so no reads.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1.
4 folds, MP3 raises, Hero (poster) calls, 3 folds.

Dumb time to defend? I expected the blinds to be loose at a 1/2 table and expected at least one overlimp. Even in the off chance that they both fold, I'm still no worse than 4.5:1.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Dumb time to fight back? Does anyone call and raise a low turn? Or just dump it?

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 thinks for a long time and bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

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jrz1972 · #12 09-07-2005, 09:39 AM

I'm fine with preflop. It sucks that neither blind came along.

I'm also fine with raising the flop. Peeling would be okay too, but when you consider that villain is betting this flop 100% of the time whether he hit or not, I think you're ahead often enough to stick in a value raise and take control of the hand.

The turn fold is easy, especially given your play on the flop. Note that if you had merely peeled on the flop this would be a somewhat tougher laydown. When you show strength on the flop and *then* get donkbet, it's easier to get away from this one. (Don't get me wrong. If you had just called the flop I would still vote for folding the turn, but one hidden benefit to raising the flop is that you can dump your hand with more confidence later on if villain plays back).

MATT111 · #13 09-07-2005, 09:54 AM

Preflop is good.
Flop: Reads are important. Raising is better than calling because the hand plays much easier in any situation on the turn.

Fold the turn.

MrWookie47 · #14 09-07-2005, 10:12 AM

I like jrz's analysis on this one. I was thinking the same thing.

DeathDonkey · #15 09-07-2005, 10:45 AM

3 bet preflop.

-DeathDonkey

car ramrod · #16 09-07-2005, 11:07 AM

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3 bet preflop.

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how low do you go when you 3 bet an LP opener? 78s seems a little crazy. Does it matter about your read on the blinds. I have been messing around with this. Don't you want some read or numbers on the opener before you 3 bet him?

benkath1 · #17 09-07-2005, 11:40 AM

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3 bet preflop.

-DeathDonkey

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Why? Like OP said, he wanted the blinds in there, why try and make this heads up?

I'm not in total disagreemant with you, but I'd like to know your reasoning.

My thought on 3 betting preflop would be to take control of the hand, buy the button (which I think has little value in this spot), possible advertizing (first impressions only come once), and maybe some fold equity.

Why I don't like 3 betting is you could be HU in a smallish pot knocking out the blinds, a cap wouldn't be good IMO, and you could see a flop like that.

Anybody else?

DeathDonkey · #18 09-07-2005, 11:55 AM

There is no expectation to get a multiway pot. If the choice is between seeing a flop two ways or three ways I want two ways with the blinds in dead money every time. This hand isn't a big dog to hands besides overpairs and you have position and if you 3 bet, initiative.

Put it another way, why call his raise? You feel given the price you are offered your hand will not fair too poorly against his range of raising hands. Fold equity and buying the button are both very good reasons, don't dismiss them so quickly. Also folding preflop is a legitimate option. I would say I would 3 bet any hand I am going to play here based on the likelihood of a 2 or 3 way flop and my good position on just about everyone.

-DeathDonkey

car ramrod · #19 09-07-2005, 11:56 AM

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Why? Like OP said, he wanted the blinds in there, why try and make this heads up?

I'm not in total disagreemant with you, but I'd like to know your reasoning.

My thought on 3 betting preflop would be to take control of the hand, buy the button (which I think has little value in this spot), possible advertizing (first impressions only come once), and maybe some fold equity.

Why I don't like 3 betting is you could be HU in a smallish pot knocking out the blinds, a cap wouldn't be good IMO, and you could see a flop like that.

Anybody else?

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Since he is opening in LP we can lower his raising standards some. Say he is coming in with JQ or JT. Now we 3bet pf, he is going to call thinking we have a good (better) hand. Say the flop comes A39. He checks, we bet, he folds. I think it is important to have a read on the pfr first, but I think this play works a large number of the time.

One more thing to note, is that our hand is less likely to be dominated by hands he would open with.

I would like to hear Death Donkey's thoughts.

car ramrod · #20 09-07-2005, 12:00 PM

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Put it another way, why call his raise? You feel given the price you are offered your hand will not fair too poorly against his range of raising hands

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good points. You may have odds to make this call +ev, but, the pfr has the initiative, so if the flop comes A39, and he bets, what option do we have, fold.

I like to fold pf, or raise. Taking the initiative is very important.