Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

pipster · #1 12-21-2005, 10:34 AM

This is a spot I have a lot of trouble in and end up being to aggressive I think. I am interested to hear what other people have to say...

I check behind on the turn. I am willing to put in 1 more bet on this hand. If he C/R's me I fold. I think I am beat a large percentage of the time on this turn/board. I could be betting into a made straight, draw that won't fold, Ax, etc.

So I check behind and check/call a river bet. My thinking is most hands I will beat will fold (except draws), and most hands I am losing to will cost me 2-3 more bets. And I can see a lot of people C/Ring with a draw on this board as well. So maybe I can induce a bluff from a weaker hand/missed draw on the river, and win an extra bet I would have lost... and save an extra bet or two when I am beat.

Aces McGee · #2 12-21-2005, 10:44 AM

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And I can see a lot of people C/Ring with a draw on this board as well

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It's a possibility, of course, but I'm almost never c/r by a draw in these spots. Only the trickiest of opponents will c/r here.

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I am willing to put in 1 more bet on this hand.

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Why not do it on the turn, then? By checking behind, you're giving free cards to six-out hands (KQ, 77) or hands with even more outs (big diamonds, 66).

-McGee

pipster · #3 12-21-2005, 10:56 AM

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And I can see a lot of people C/Ring with a draw on this board as well

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It's a possibility, of course, but I'm almost never c/r by a draw in these spots. Only the trickiest of opponents will c/r here.

Hmmm... and this is a common thing for me to do. Not sure if that is good or bad. I will c/r the turn and lead the river if I miss my draw. maybe it is a leak. I don't do it often... just into the face of a weak player.

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I am willing to put in 1 more bet on this hand.

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Why not do it on the turn, then? By checking behind, you're giving free cards to six-out hands (KQ, 77) or hands with even more outs (big diamonds, 66).

-McGee

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I don't do it on the turn because I expect to get much fewer calls. I think the odds of someone betting with a worse hand to a check behind on the turn is greater than someone calling with a hand I beat on the turn.

Very few hands I want to fold are folding here. 66 with the OESD is calling, as is most OESD or flush draws. So if I am going to check/fold the river UI, and bet/fold the turn. What will I do if I bet and he calls the turn, and then leads the river on the 6? I either make a crying call or fold. So I haven't changed the "odds" that much. He still paid 1 bet drawing slim, and I still lost 1 bet I would have lost anyways, and only made 1 bet when he called.

I do chase out hands like KQ or Kx, but those weren't the most likely of hands here anyways.

#4 12-21-2005, 11:15 AM

I think the A on the turn is one of the trickiest spots in a raised pot because it is the perfect spot for an aggressive player to use a c/r bluff, as it will fold out a lot of pp hands (myself included)because it represents the made pair of A. That's why I checked behind because I would have folded to a c/r and I didn't want to be in that position

Aces McGee · #5 12-21-2005, 12:24 PM

He's not always going to take a shot on the river when you check behind.

It's not just about him not folding hands you want him to fold. If you don't charge him to draw out on you, then you're not making up the bets for the times he gets there.

-McGee

Nick C · #6 12-21-2005, 10:50 AM

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So I check behind and check/call a river bet. My thinking is most hands I will beat will fold (except draws), and most hands I am losing to will cost me 2-3 more bets.

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If you bet the turn, you should fold to a checkraise.

Occasionally you'll get checkraise-bluffed or checkraise-semibluffed here, but keep in mind that Villain is checkraising a preflop 3-bettor with an ace on the board.