AA line I've never taken before...

Very well played.

[billyjex]

i think i should call every TAG reraise if i'm in position if they give up this easy.

[UOPokerPlayer]

Puzzling, but i think i kind of get it. You can lead into him and he's going to fold worse hands. He probably doesn't lead with worse hands if he's really weak/tight. After he calls the reraise pf, your range really deals with how tight the opponent is. I know (few) opponents that calling the reraise means AA-QQ and AK. A lot of those same opponent would push pf with AA and KK. You're either crushing AK or you're crushed by a set. Does the flop bet mean anything to you? Is the amount ~2/3 mean he wants a call or is this just standard. I really think this is a weak line, but I can't see a better one. Leading I think is better, then shutting down if called. If he's really that weak tight, you'll usually get a cheap showdown and the AA-QQ will lead the turn, showing you you're beat.

As always, this really comes down to a read, and if this is the guy that doesn't play without the nuts or close, his pf and flop indicate you're behind his range.

If he's really weak-tight, you're probably not worried about him taking the pot from you, so it's all about value.
I think leading gets the most from AK, so that's what I'd do.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
If i had reraised preflop with JJ i would definitely bet the flop (even though i was very likely beaten)

[/ QUOTE ]

I like a lot of what you're expressing, but I don't feel it's prudent to put money in the pot if you feel you were "very likely beaten."

Garland

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. Just shoving chips in there is bad poker, we make money by proceeding with calculated decisions which utilize the highest ev possible. Sure our decisions may be wrong occassionally but the majority of the time they are right, and this is one of those cases. Sure he COULD have 23o...
Hell most of the time people raise they COULD have 27o, so next time I see a raise im going to push with 73o because im a huge favorite.

Seriously, this is one of the times you take the hit and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i often make bold statements on this forum and then somebody picks apart everything i said and basically puts me in my place....This is NOT one of those times.....Check folding this flop IS horrible. And this is one of the worst counter arguments i have seen.

If we think villian only calls a preflop reraise with only AA, KK and QQ we should reraise him EVERY time.....He's raising 7.83% of his hands (many more than just AA-QQ)....We'll pick up so many pots right? WRONG!!!! The reason we don't do this is because people DO call reraises with other hands. And since we hold 2 aces and theres a king and a queen on the flop, hands like 10-10 and J-J become MUCH more likely. Sets aren't that easy to flop.

And as a general poker rule, it's good to have the initiative. If i had reraised preflop with JJ i would definitely bet the flop (even though i was very likely beaten). Betting out with AA is an absolute no brainer. Garland said this is the first time he's ever done something like this. He'd be well off if he made it his last

[/ QUOTE ]

Aggie I'm not trying to put you in your place, but there is an absolute argument for Garlands play here. Alot of AVERAGE PLAYERS (WITH 16% VPIP) check behind here with JJ-22 because they are afraid of a C/R on a damn scary flop against a PF re-raiser. Not only that, Garland made a MASSIVE pf raise, someone with 16% VPIP doesn't call that with random cards.

[Hattifnatt]

well played sir.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a lot of what you're expressing, but I don't feel it's prudent to put money in the pot if you feel you were "very likely beaten."


[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I sometimes make giant reraises when i'm POSITIVE i'm beaten just to see if my opponent will fold. You do realize you don't need the best hand to win in poker right?

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
Why? I sometimes make giant reraises when i'm POSITIVE i'm beaten just to see if my opponent will fold. You do realize you don't need the best hand to win in poker right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I know about not having the best hand to win (i.e. bluffing), but in the specific scenario of a JJ reraise on a KQx board and you feel you're "very likely beaten," what better hand is going to fold other than perhaps AQ?

Garland

[Woolygimp]

Ok to understand why a weaker line is better than a lead on this flop you have to put yourself in the villains shoes. Based on the information Garland provided the Villain is your average weak/tight.

Both Garland and Villain have deep stacks. Villain raises to 10, then Garland (correctly) re-raises him to 50.

If YOU were the Villain what would you do here (with deep stacks) holding KK?

I'd fold. I really would, considering the stack sizes. Some of the looser players would push. Most "Weak/Tight" Players here would think folding PF to be far too weak, while pushing against a very likely AA as not a very prudent play.

So he calls.
[Keep in mind hes 16% VPIP and a very weak/tight player. It is VERY unlikely he's making this play with 45s, j10s, 22, 1010, or JJ]

Now lets assume villain called with 45s, j10s, 22, 1010, or JJ.

Villain says to himself, "Ok, This guy just re-raised me 50 preflop and when the flop landed high he checked it to me..." Do you REALLY think your average weak/tight player is going to bet into a very likely C/R against another deep stack?

<font color="red"> Would you guys really bet this if checked to with a hand like JJ/1010 or 22? I think thats far too loose... Guys raises you to 50 PF and then checks to you on the flop? Cmon... It smells fishy. </font>

Regardless, understand this guy is just as scared of Garlands hand as Garland is of his. In fact less so, since this guy (again) is a weak/tight.

Guys I implore you to consider stack sizes because it is the most important factor. Shortstacked players are more likely to make moves and are less scared of their plays, for right reason. &lt;Most of those reason's revolving over building a large pot and implied odds&gt;

This player is not making a move here with anything except QQ-KK-AK. He would bet AK, I'll give you that BUT again he won't have AK often enough here to warrant a lead.

I agree 100% with Garlands play, and ask people who disagree to strongly reconsider the play and understand ALL of the factors before making an argument.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course I know about not having the best hand to win (i.e. bluffing), but in the specific scenario of a JJ reraise on a KQx board and you feel you're "very likely beaten," what better hand is going to fold other than perhaps AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you answered the question yourself.....AQ.....Other hands that will fold include the ones that you still beat or tie including JJ-77, ect. When i say "very likely beaten" I mean &gt;50% of the time. I don't mean 100% of the time.