First 5,000 hands at LO8 - what the hell am I doing wrong here?

[juanez]

OK - I got PT a week or so ago and have approx. 5,000 hands at .50/1.00 and 1/2 Party LO8. Here are my combined stats:

VPIP: 16.71
VPIP from SB: 41.21
Won $ WSF: 25.26
BB/100: <font color="red">(3.61)</font>!!!
Went to SD%: 30.36
Won $ at SD%: 65.65
PFR%: 0.39
Total Ag (includes PF): 0.37

FWIW, I'm sticking REALLY close to the starting hands recommended at O8Poker.com.

One question about the starting hands: It recommends that you "Play any hand that has A2 in it". This seems a little loose to me since the object is to scoop as often as possible. A2xx seems like a hand that has great low potential, but how often can you expect to get a wheel and take it all? Of course if the Ace is suited or there are 2 high cards in there that's a different story. I have been playing "any A2xx". Maybe only play A2xx from late position?

Aggression is something that I'm still trying to grasp in O8. I typically only raise if I have the nuts and sometimes if I'm drawing to the nuts on the flop (high or low) and rarely if I'm drawing to anything less than the nuts. Bad? It seems that I get on tables with six or seven 30+ VPIP players on it (I know this is good) and raising has little effect on bumping anyone out. For building a pot, this is excellent. Just still figuring out when to apply this more effectively.

Perhaps it's just variance and I started off on a bad run? I realize that 5,000 hands isn't all that much. O8Poker says "Win rates are higher than in holdem" and "There is much less variance than in most other poker games". I must be screwing up bigtime somehow.

It's frustrating so far because I can multi-table 2/4 or 3/6 HE and watch sports on TV without a problem and sustain a 1.75 - 2.00 BB/100 win rate. Yet playing one table of LO8 when concentrating, I'm getting crushed. (It kills me to see these guys play any 4 cards and drag pot after pot. I saw a guy play AAA3 rainbow and make a wheel for a scoop this morning...ugh.) It's nice playing a game where you have to actually think.

So, rip me a new one and let me know where I might be going wrong here...PLEASE!

Thanks guys,
JP

[DeadMoneyOC]

Just from the general feeling of your post I noticed a couple things...

A2 is always playable in low-limit 08. Learning how to push and pull with A2 is very important and is a concept that must be mastered. I bet you have been getting quartered a lot huh? Yeah, thats what happens when you run bad and it seems like A2 isnt going to be profitable, but it is. It also seems to me your aggression factor is very low. This means you probably arent getting max value out of your hands. Once you get better at hand reading and extracting max value from everyhand you will feel better. I also REALLY hope you didnt play 5K hands single-tabling limit O8 in the week or so you have had your PT. That would be INSANE! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

5000 hands is not enough. it is only about a week of full-time 3-4 tabling. It's just one week. I,ve even donr 5000 hands in 4 days before.

[juanez]

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I also REALLY hope you didnt play 5K hands single-tabling limit O8 in the week or so you have had your PT. That would be INSANE!


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Well, I have 2-tabled a few times, but yeah. I have played 5000 hands in about a week or so. I had a lot of time off and I'm obsessive-compulsive I guess. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[juanez]

OK - maybe it's too early to freak out.

[Buzz]

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FWIW, I'm sticking REALLY close to the starting hands recommended at O8Poker.com.

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JP - That's a good site and has good general advice regarding starting hands.

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One question about the starting hands: It recommends that you "Play any hand that has A2 in it".

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I think A278n and A288n are about the worst A2XY hands, and they're marginal, along with a few others that have middle cards. (n means "rainbow")

But although a few A2MMn hands are marginal, most A2XY hands are very playable and some are premium. (M means middle card, 6,7,8,9)

In terms of giving broad, general advice, you can play any A2XY hand. You still need to find a favorable fit with the flop.

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This seems a little loose to me since the object is to scoop as often as possible.

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Scooping is the object. But playing any A2XY hand is not too loose.

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A2xx seems like a hand that has great low potential, but how often can you expect to get a wheel and take it all?

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I think you may be making a fundamental mistake here. By focusing on the ace and the deuce, you may not be giving enough consideration to all four cards in the hand (although you may think you are). It's a fairly common mistake, and difficult to correct.

Let's look at one nice hand with an ace plus a deuce:
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

That hand is only going to make the unquartered and unsixthed nut low about 15% of the time, and the quartered or sixthed low another 10% and it will make a low with a live ace or deuce roughly another 10% of the time. And that's all for only half the pot.

But even though the hand has no flush capability and even though it has no counterfeit low back-up, the hand scoops about 8% and wins the equivalent of a whole pot about 20% of the time (including the scoops). All that actually makes A2KKn a very nice, though not ideal, starting hand.

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Of course if the Ace is suited or there are 2 high cards in there that's a different story.

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Yes, and that's the example I gave. All right, let's step down a notch. A299n is still a nice starting hand, scooping about 6% and winning the equivalent of a whole pot about 16%. (And doing about the same for low as A2KKn).

To specifically answer your question about how often you'd make a wheel with A2KK, I think 51312/1712304 = ~3% of the time, but they won’t all scoop. However, you can scoop without a wheel.

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I have been playing "any A2xx". Maybe only play A2xx from late position?

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That would be a mistake in a low limit game, except maybe for A2MMn hands (ace-deuce rainbows with two middle cards). You'd be playing too tightly if you did that. You'd do worse than you're doing now.

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Aggression is something that I'm still trying to grasp in O8. I typically only raise if I have the nuts and sometimes if I'm drawing to the nuts on the flop (high or low) and rarely if I'm drawing to anything less than the nuts. Bad?

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There's a lot to learn here - when to be aggressive and when to be passive. It's not the same as Texas hold 'em - more complicated. It's very opponent, image, position, and hand dependent and something you'll be continually working on.

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Just still figuring out when to apply this more effectively.

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Get in line.

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Perhaps it's just variance and I started off on a bad run?

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Perhaps. I'd guess it has more to do with your opponents.

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I must be screwing up bigtime somehow.

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Perhaps, but not necessarily.

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(It kills me to see these guys play any 4 cards and drag pot after pot.

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They may not quite be playing any four cards. (Or they may).

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I saw a guy play AAA3 rainbow and make a wheel for a scoop this morning...ugh.)

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AAA3-rainbow is not "any four cards." In my humble opinion, AAA3-rainbow is very playable. But you have to know how to play it! (I'm going to have lots of people raising their eyebrows here, and I'm not recommending the hand for beginners).

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It's nice playing a game where you have to actually think.

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I agree.

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So, rip me a new one and let me know where I might be going wrong here...PLEASE!

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I don't know how to read your statistics. But if you're sticking to Greg's list of starting hands, I don't think that's where you're going wrong.

Buzz

[MyTurn2Raise]

wow...

your W$WSF is low....probably running a bit bad.

Your aggression is way too low...You should calculate total without pre-flop as it distorts the number alot. Check on Gregery's site about Pokertracker stats.

I will say that you are not raising enough preflop. The biggest improvement win rate wise for me was when I switched from about 2-3% PFR to 5-6%. I basically raise all AA2,AA3,A23, A2xy when the ace is suited A3Wx when the ace is suited. The low-limit idiots will call you with worse hands anyways. The decent players will back off to a raise with marginal holdings. This allows more of your hands to scoop and makes the better players easier to read as far as where they are in a hand. Trust me after 40k at 0.5BB/100 hands...the last 40k at 3+BB/100 hands has been sweet.

BTW-I hope you are not on the X-skins, those games suck.