Do you treat min-raises as A) a real raise B)limping hand

Leo Bello · #1 08-15-2004, 11:12 AM

We all have talked about the non-usefullness of min-raises.
Still they seem to run galore at tables, principally at low limit like NL25 and NL50.

So, generally what do you do when someone min-raises before you. in this case you would cold-call with hands you would normally limp if no one has raised, or think of it as a valuable raise and fold limping hands.
Of course, in this discussion I am not counting your premium hands (hands that you would raise yourself).

fatduck · #2 08-15-2004, 02:30 PM

At these low limits I think people minraise when they're bored and want to "stir something up." It's sort of how a skilled player will make raises preflop with marginal hands to make their raises with premium hands harder to read. I usually consider it (preflop) an "extra blind" but it's not really anything you can read a hand from.

vulturesrow · #3 08-15-2004, 02:30 PM

I treat as if the guy limped. At least the tables I play at. The reason I do is because almost alway most of the people at the table do the same thing So I get the odds..

MrFroggyX · #4 08-15-2004, 04:07 PM

There are a difference..

Are we talking min bet or min raise?

If someone min bet (the first one in a pot) I would treat it like a limp, and depending on my cards, I will also limp or make a proper raise myself.. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] if the original min-bettor re-raises me.. Then he probably has a very good hand.

If someone min raises me.. They can have lots off hands. A monster that they want you to call. A good hand but not great that are "checking" how good your hand is.. Or your opponent is on a draw that wants a free card on the next street..

Leo Bello · #5 08-15-2004, 04:42 PM

The question was about pre-flop play.
when u have to limp in, but someone insteead of limping open raises for minimum raise. Like instead of posting 0.25 makes it 0.50 or instead of 0.50 makes it 1. Especifically at these low limits, this is viewed by you as a hand you are limping in or as a cold call to a real raise.
Just as a add-on, I try to always raise at least 4 BB when I want to make a raise, and normally 4 BB to all raises to disguise the hand.
the thing is like u have a low pocket pair (66, 55, 44, 33) or something like KQs, AT, hands you would limp with. Then someone min raises before u got to act. Do you keep to your plan and pay the double to enter as you were limping, or you think twice about it and treat it like if it was raised.

jslag · #6 08-15-2004, 06:38 PM

I find that players do this with all sorts of hands. Some will do it with their monsters -- AA/KK/QQ, others will do it with marginal holdings like Ax/Kx/QJo. If the min-raise is after I've already limped, I will almost always call it to see a flop. If the min-raise is in front of me, and I have a marginal/borderline holding I'd usually limp with, I will usually fold and treat the min-raise like a normal raise.

It really comes down to the read you have on your opponents. Some of them will try this only a few times. Others will do it habitually. I remember just a day or two ago I was playing NL50 and UTG+1 made it $2 to go. Two other players called, and I re-raised to $5 on the button with AKo. UTG+1 made it $9 to go, and everyone called. The flop is A-J-rag. UTG+1 goes all in, everyone else folds and I think for about 30 seconds and call. I figured him for KK or QQ or worse, and I'm only behind to AA or AJ. He flips over QJ *offsuit* and I more than double up. His re-raise of my raise allowed me to make that call. On top of that, I noticed he had been min-raising with junk hands to steal blinds and 'take control' of hands post-flop.

I try to treat min-raises with respect unless I have a read on my opponent. Doing otherwise can get you in some tough post-flop situations with marginal hands like AQo/AJs/ATs/KQs/etc. Often a re-raise preflop will give you some valuable information as to the strength of your opponents hand.

The problem with the min-raise preflop is that you're inviting people to take your stack for cheap. Players that do this with their monster holdings as a slow play are usually the ones posting bad beat stories like "AA Cracked by T8o, why me??" -- because the blinds get good odds to limp with very weak holdings.

A min-raise post-flop usually indicates strength and in my opinion is usually inviting calls.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] jslag [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Daann · #7 08-15-2004, 08:43 PM

I actually make quite a few changes if someone has min raised and I don't have a read. Basically, I will muck a lot of the same stuff that I would for a real raise, barring a few hands which I would play differently... I will also call with any suited connector except if my relative position is rubbish, as a lot of min raisers follow it up with a pot bet on the flop. It's too easy to get caught out with AJo/ATo/KJo and the like, if you consider the min raise just to be a limp because people do this with the offsuit big cards all the time.

MrFroggyX · #8 08-16-2004, 06:51 AM

The question was about pre-flop play.

Ahh.. Ok.

Then I would treat it like a regular raise.. And muck hands like AJ, KJ, QK and so on..

MrFroggyX · #9 08-16-2004, 07:07 AM

the thing is like u have a low pocket pair (66, 55, 44, 33) or something like KQs, AT, hands you would limp with.

The low pocket pair is a real killer (or every pair in NL) when tacking your opponent’s stack!! I would never fold it when someone raises a "standard" raise (4x-5xBB).
It's one off my favourite positions in NL Hold'em.. To call a bet pre-flop with a pocket pair.
But you need to be sure that you have implied odds:

The chance you will flopping a set is 7.5:1
So you must be sure that you can win atleast 8:1 on your Preflop money if you hit a set. Here are some examples:

In all cases you cover your opponent:

Your opponent bets $4. He has $100 left. call! You are getting 25:1 on your money.
Your opponent bets $10. He has $100 left. call!! You are getting 10:1 on your money.
Your opponent bets $3. He has $15 left. Don't call!! You are getting 5:1 on your money.

Off course if other people is in the pot you could apply the implied odds on them also..
I think the biggest moneymakers for me are calling a Preflop bet with a pocket pair.

Here is one hand I played when I called with my 22:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MrFroggyX ($109.45)
MP2 ($82.05)
MP3 ($102.80)
CO ($79.35)
Button ($239.80)
SB ($263)
BB ($100)
UTG ($106.65)
UTG+1 ($204)
UTG+2 ($102.65)

Preflop: MrFroggyX is MP1 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $2, MrFroggyX calls $2, MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $4, CO folds, Button raises to $10, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 calls $8, MrFroggyX calls $8, MP3 calls $6.

Flop: ($43) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, MrFroggyX bets $20, MP3 calls $20, Button raises to $229.8 (All-In), UTG+2 calls $92.65 (All-In), MrFroggyX calls $79.45 (All-In), MP3 calls $72.80 (All-In).

Turn: ($557.70) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players, 4 all-in)

River: ($557.70) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players, 4 all-in)

Final Pot: $557.70
Main Pot: $413.60, between MrFroggyX, MP3, Button and UTG+2. > Pot won by MrFroggyX ($413.60).
Pot 2: $0.45, between MrFroggyX, MP3 and Button. > Pot won by MrFroggyX ($0.45).
Pot 3: $13.30, between MrFroggyX and Button. > Pot won by MrFroggyX ($13.30).
Pot 4: $130.35, returned to Button.

Results in white below: 
UTG+2 shows Kh 8h (one pair, eights).
MrFroggyX shows 2c 2s (three of a kind, twos).
MP3 shows 9h Qh (high card, ace).
Button shows Kc As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MrFroggyX wins $427.35. Button wins $130.35. 

As you can see thoose little pairs can make you a lot off money.. don't play limit strategy and fold them pre-flop against a bet!

jezaja · #10 08-16-2004, 07:59 AM

I have to agree with MrFroggyX here, great implied odds on big stacks with people who overrate their top pair with good kicker.
Even more neat when they hit their trips and you got the boat.

Back to the real topic, min raises. Ive often seen people min raising UTG, UTG+1 with good hands which needs to hit something high like AK, AQ, KQ. Its kind of easy to get the pot for free if nothing spectacular flops, just a pot bet out of position and they are out instantly.

But when they hit their TP the pot will be a bit bigger, guess they will break even if all of their TP holds up.
I play at a pretty low level so I guess its not as common in middle/high stake games.