How would you play this on the river?

sean c · #1 10-17-2005, 09:10 AM

Live 4/8. This is my first hand at the table. Everyone at the table i have played with before and this is going to be a very loose passive game. Villian in this hand is a dealer at this card room he is to loose passive pre flop but is a very good post flop player.

Pre flop: I limp UTG with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], three others limp to CO(villian) who raises, the BB and rest of us all call.

Flop(6 players 12.5sb): K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB checks, i bet, two limpers call, last limper folds, CO raises, BB folds, i 3-bet, both limpers fold and CO calls.

Turn(2 players 10bb): 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I bet and CO calls.

River(2 players 12bb): A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Okay that card sucks for me CO has a pretty narrow range he normally raises with pre flop which includes big suited aces and AA-QQ. Is this a clear bet/fold or is my hand strong enough and the pot big enough to check/call or bet/call here?

Any thoughts on any of the other streets also? OOP in this game i go back and forth betwwen limping and raising with this type of hand pre flop. The flop 3-bet was for value and the two limpers in this hand didn't concern me at all they were complete monkeys so i decided not to go for the flop smooth call turn check/raise line because i fely there was no need to protect my hand.

newhizzle · #2 10-17-2005, 09:34 AM

this is a tough one, if your read is very strong i guess its a check/call, but i really want to bet and dont want to be raised

is it possible he played QQ or AQ this way?

do you think he will raise AQ on the river?

@bsolute_luck · #3 10-17-2005, 09:41 AM

if you check, i think you need to fold. basically you're hoping he either has KQ, QQ or AQ that will bet this river. QQ/AQ are doubtful given play so far. i think all other hands that are betting here have you beat. so i think you need to value bet this river and fold to a raise.

sean c · #4 10-17-2005, 09:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
this is a tough one, if your read is very strong i guess its a check/call, but i really want to bet and dont want to be raised

is it possible he played QQ or AQ this way?

do you think he will raise AQ on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

No and no unless he was tilting but he looked to be up a rack or two(he usually is). I had never seen him make any real tricky plays and felt his flop raise was TPTK or better in what looked to be a protected pot. I hate to put people on such a narrow range and that is why had trouble with this one.

newhizzle · #5 10-17-2005, 09:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is a tough one, if your read is very strong i guess its a check/call, but i really want to bet and dont want to be raised

is it possible he played QQ or AQ this way?

do you think he will raise AQ on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

No and no unless he was tilting but he looked to be up a rack or two(he usually is). I had never seen him make any real tricky plays and felt his flop raise was TPTK or better in what looked to be a protected pot. I hate to put people on such a narrow range and that is why had trouble with this one.

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with a read that strong, i dont see how you can be ahead, but i want to showdown my 2 pair in this big pot so i check/call, but i think its close

#6 10-17-2005, 02:35 PM

This is a bet and call situation for me. I don't see any way that I could fold on the river.

Fat Nicky · #7 10-17-2005, 02:55 PM

based on your read I think it's an easy check call. The only hand I see you being ahead of here is KQ, and he doesn't seem like the type of player that would definitly be raised that hand pre-flop.

Also, you say he is passive, maybe he will check behind a better hand also. Either way, I want to showdown my 2 pair without paying 2 bets at the river.

callmedonnie · #8 10-17-2005, 03:20 PM

I would check call because I really want to show this down. Plus, you said he was a very passive preflop player which would indicate that this river can counterfeit your hand a good portion of the time.

W. Deranged · #9 10-17-2005, 04:03 PM

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if you check, i think you need to fold. basically you're hoping he either has KQ, QQ or AQ that will bet this river. QQ/AQ are doubtful given play so far. i think all other hands that are betting here have you beat. so i think you need to value bet this river and fold to a raise.

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I disagree that villain will be betting only hands we beat on the river here and hence checking implies folding. It's certainly close, and the more I think about villain's supposed range the more I realize we're in pretty bad shape here, but the pot is large and I don't think we can ever be sure enough of villain's range to merit folding such a good hand after checking the river.

I disagree that AQ is unlikely here. Many players would raise the flop here with two big cards and a gutshot and would peel on the river (the pot is pretty big). QQ is not that likely true, but some players are quite unable to lay down big pairs, and villain may even bet such a hand if checked to in the hope of folding a K (remember, villain is good post-flop and may be capable of some trickery).

I agree with your general premise, though, that checking and calling is not good here. Basically, that allows villain to pretty much play the river close to optimally, as he'll likely check behind a bunch of hands he might call with on the river if we bet. I really don't like having to fold this hand at any point but if villain's range is really as tiny as OP is making it out to be we can fold to a raise and so I'm okay with that.

sean c · #10 10-17-2005, 04:24 PM

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if you check, i think you need to fold. basically you're hoping he either has KQ, QQ or AQ that will bet this river. QQ/AQ are doubtful given play so far. i think all other hands that are betting here have you beat. so i think you need to value bet this river and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that villain will be betting only hands we beat on the river here and hence checking implies folding. It's certainly close, and the more I think about villain's supposed range the more I realize we're in pretty bad shape here, but the pot is large and I don't think we can ever be sure enough of villain's range to merit folding such a good hand after checking the river.

I disagree that AQ is unlikely here. Many players would raise the flop here with two big cards and a gutshot and would peel on the river (the pot is pretty big). QQ is not that likely true, but some players are quite unable to lay down big pairs, and villain may even bet such a hand if checked to in the hope of folding a K (remember, villain is good post-flop and may be capable of some trickery).

I agree with your general premise, though, that checking and calling is not good here. Basically, that allows villain to pretty much play the river close to optimally, as he'll likely check behind a bunch of hands he might call with on the river if we bet. I really don't like having to fold this hand at any point but if villain's range is really as tiny as OP is making it out to be we can fold to a raise and so I'm okay with that.

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I have about 30 hours with this guy and had seen him limp a number of times with AK-AJ off and JJ and lower. He pretty much plays abc poker post flop and value bets the monkeys relentlessly i had never seen him get out of line but 95% behind i wasn't sure but i bet/folded without hesitation and felt funny about it later hence the post. The next time i see him i am going to ask him what he had maybe he will tell the truth. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I guess its closer than i thought it was while playing the hand.