Flop and turn confussion

[Augster]

I think, from your read of a straight forward player, we are in big trouble.

Pre-flop is standard, obviously.

I have to get away from betting this flop in position into 4 players. But when I think, "What would I do if I raised AA, KK or QQ preflop?" I always would bet. Always. So I bet.

The C/R from a "straight-forward" player means we are toast I believe. She didn't C/R to drive anyone out, she C/R'd for value. If she wanted others out, she would have bet into us, the pre-flop agg, and gotten us to 3-bet and drive the others out.

Here she gave herself the best chance of extracting the most bets on the flop. Not good. Probably has 44, or A8s. Maybe 78/89s too.

The turn when she bets out, I think the raise is spew. You might want to call down, as if the other K hits, you're golden. Folding here wouldn't be the worst fold in the world.

I could see calling down, just to find out what she would C/R me with.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
I think, from your read of a straight forward player, we are in big trouble.

Pre-flop is standard, obviously.

I have to get away from betting this flop in position into 4 players. But when I think, "What would I do if I raised AA, KK or QQ preflop?" I always would bet. Always. So I bet.

The C/R from a "straight-forward" player means we are toast I believe. She didn't C/R to drive anyone out, she C/R'd for value. If she wanted others out, she would have bet into us, the pre-flop agg, and gotten us to 3-bet and drive the others out.

Here she gave herself the best chance of extracting the most bets on the flop. Not good. Probably has 44, or A8s. Maybe 78/89s too.

The turn when she bets out, I think the raise is spew. You might want to call down, as if the other K hits, you're golden. Folding here wouldn't be the worst fold in the world.

I could see calling down, just to find out what she would C/R me with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Augster the turn raise is the last money i am putting in the pot. If i get 3-bet or she bets the river i am folding. So the raise doesn't cost me any more than calling down.

[Mathieu]

On the flop there is a good possibility that you are still ahead, so I think you have to bet to protect your hand since anyone with live cards has at least 6 outs to outdraw.

I call the flop check raise, although it annoys me because trips play the same way, and it's hard to put him on a pocket pair or a 4. It's possible that he has a suited 4 that he decided to take a flop with, given the pot odds and good relative position. With 2 callers or more this check raise would show more strength, and I would be really tempted to fold if my read was good. With only 1 caller he might think that he is still good and whats to find out now rather than on the turn. Given the 14-1 pot odds, and the fact that only one other player called your bet, I think you have to call the flop check raise even though it does not look so good.

On the turn I don't raise for a free showdown. I think it is very likely that SB is calling with a hand that has very few outs to beat us. There is also a reasonable chance that we are behind, so I like going for overcalls.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do on the turn, Aaron?

There's definitely some gutshot/5-outer hands out there that we want to protect SB from, and we can probably fold to a 3-bet given the read. But there's also many hands where we don't really mind SB calling the turn with for one more that he'll likely fold for two (PPs, for instance), folding TPTK to a 3-bet hurts in a pot this big, and call-call gets us a showdown for the same price. I occasionally find myself torn in these spots, and usually end up calling down but always doubt my play at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just call. Raising is one of those "information raises" that give you information that's pretty much useless. Yeah, you can probably fold to a 3-bet, but what does that do for you? (Actually, 5% of the time you improve to beat trips on the river, so you *do* lose by raising and folding to a 3-bet.) I want to get the overcaller drawing dead or drawing to 2 outs and I don't want to have to face a 3-bet. (Maybe he has a gutshot and will call properly, but I'm more afraid of an 8 than I am of a gutshot.)

I generally tread very lightly on the turn when the flop came down paired. It's treacherous territory.