Was I wrong to play 88 in early position?

[slogger]

I'm playing .25/.5 at Pacific, 8-handed, and I'm UTG holding 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] .

I call, UTG+1 raises, 3 calls and a fold to the SB, who folds, BB completes. We go to the flop with 6. FLop comes:

K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

I think I have UTG+1 beat at this point (pre-flop raises have been all over the place, but this guy's one of the tighter players). I don't what to put him on, but know that only KK beats me at this point. I check-call (3 others join us).

Turn comes: 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]. Now I not only think I'm ahead, but I'm on a flush draw, so I bet it out. UTG+1 raises, and I start to worry, but we still get 2 callers, and before it gets back around to me, UTG+1 starts chattering about how, "this will be a bad beat if I lose this one." Now I think I've got him. I put him on AA or AK (and he doesn't have the K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] ), and call. SHould I have raised?

I check to him on the river (a blank), contemplating a check raise, and as he bets out, he says "trust me, this will be a very bad beat if I lose this." If he had the cowboys, I can't imagine what he'd be worried about other than someone else's flush, but nobody raised the turn, so I've ruled that out. One caller to me, I badly want to raised, but just call.

Was I right?

Results to follow.

[slogger]

for calling his pre-flop raise, asking me why I wouldn't respect such a play.

[hutz]

I will frequently raise 88 UTG in a typical low limit game. Limping is certainly defensible. Folding should never have crossed your mind. Once the action is multiway back to you for a raise and you can close the action for one bet, folding would have been a significant error.

On the flop, I would have bet out, hoped the next guy raised, and then 3-bet when the action returned to me.

I would not have enjoyed seeing the diamond hit on the turn. Your 8[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] is highly unlikely to win if a fourth diamond hits. You are hoping to hit one of your outs to quads or the full house. The flush draw is not your friend. I would have bet out on the turn and raised when the action got back to me with three opponents still in the hand.

In your situation, I would have check-called the river. The way I would have played before the river would have better defined whether to bet the river or check-call.

By the way, table chatter is often nothing but a distraction. I will frequently turn chat off when I'm playing online.

I trust from the fact that the guy berated you that your set cracked his AA.

[Bubmack]

As far as calling 88 UTG, its ok as lopng as the table isn't aggressive. You wouldn't want to play it for 2, but if you expect it to be 1 bet I think you are in the clear.

After the guy raised and you got 3 callers, the second call is a no-brainer. You are getting 9-1 on the call and your odds of flopping a set are better than 9-1, let alone the fact that you may already have the best hand, although given your position, it may difficult to drive everyone out if the flop is full of blanks.

The fact that you mention that you are on a flushdraw is of no consequence at all. Holding the 8 of [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] is not really a flushdraw and would most assuredly not holdup against 4 callers of a 3 suited board.

I think the check raise would have been a great decision on the turn, since it appears that you have 2 players calling at a big diamond and perhaps UTG-1 is holding the A of [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img], which probably made him feel ok about raising his AA or AK with the diamond kicker on the turn. So make them pay for it.

[pudley4]

Preflop - if the game is normally 6+ players to the flop for 1 or 2 bets, 88 is definitely playable from UTG.

Flop - You flopped a set. You are only behind to KK. There is a flush draw on board. The pot is starting to get large (6 BB right now). All of these factors mean that what your plan should be is to try to knock people out, either on the flop or the turn. The preflop raiser is directly to your left. You need to ask yourself 2 questions:

1 - "If I bet, will he raise?" (You want him to raise)
2 - "Is a bet and raise more likely to knock people out on the flop or on the turn?"

In this hand I would tend to bet out on the flop, hoping he raises. If he does raise, I would 3-bet.

Turn - With all those players calling the flop bet, it's very possible someone already has the flush. Yes, you have a flush draw, but it's only 8-high. The preflop raiser could easily have AA with the A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] , or AK with the A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] (or even a lower pocket pair with a higher diamond than you), so your diamond draw might be no good.

I think betting out is fine, since you don't want to give the higher diamond a free chance to draw out on you. When you are raised again, I think your opp has AA or AK (with A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] ) maybe A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] for the nut flush, or KK for a higher set. When he starts complaining about a bad beat, I'd put him on AA, but I"m not sure enough of the read to reraise. You definitely have the odds to call his raise to try to hit your full house on the river if anyone does have the flush.

On the river, I don't think check-raising is right. He might lay down hands that you beat (like AA or AK), but if he has the flush he'll reraise. Plus there is another caller in the hand. He might not have raised because he has a small flush and is worried about being up against a bigger flush. When the raiser complains again about a bad beat, it's even more likely he has AA. I still just call.

[Rockfish]

If (1) he really is a tight player as you give him credit for; and (2) you believe his chatter, then you can't raise on the river. If both of these conditions are satisfied then he must have KK. He started talking about the 'bad beat' after the third diamond fell right? If (2) is satisfied and you are slightly off about (1), could he have raised you pre-flop with QJ [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] , and he's worried about Ax [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] ? What's his definition of a bad beat? To some players, especially bitter, tight players, any beat is a bad beat.

If only (1) is satisfied and (2) is not then raise his narrow ass. This could be the on-line equivalent of the live move where you grab your chips when you're in late position and look at the potential bettor as though to say, 'if you don't bet, I might, but I'm at least going to call'. I've seen this used by bad players frequently trying to get you to check if you're in early position.

I dunno. I wasn't there. What happened?

[pudley4]

He's an idiot. You're getting 11-1 to call his raise, and you're closing the action. You're only 7.5-1 to flop a set, so folding preflop here would be moronic.

The best response when they get mad? Just type "lol" after every thing they say.

[CrackerZack]

First off to answer your subject question... in a game where UTG+1 raises and gets 3 cold callers and the flop is seen 6 handed, this is the perfect game to limp in with 88 UTG.

Now to the way it was played...

You're able to limpin in without needing 8 callers because you're getting "implied odds" meaning you can make up the odds you don't have pre-flop when you hit your set. You didn't quite do that with the post flop play though.

Flop, K83 2 diamonds, you have the 8 of diamonds...

I'd lead at the flop with my set of 8s here hoping UTG+1 raises... you're not gonna lose anyone with a draw here so you can make it 3 when it gets back to you and charge the hell out of them. I'd lead at the turn also with the flush out there, (your 8 high flush draw cannot be good so don't consider it) when UTG +1 raises and everyone just calls I'd make it 3. If he caps I'd check call the river unless I filled...then I'd check-raise him hopefully trapping some people in the middle. With all his chatter he probably had AA with the Ad.

I tend to screw up when I'm out of position here so I'm looking forward to reading other peoples thoughts but I really want to make this hand 3 bets on at least one, hopefully 2 streets.