3-betting AQ PF

#1 08-03-2005, 03:15 PM

I have a PT read for once. CO is 14/8 over 1400 hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, Hero's action.

I really suck, especially postflop. What's my plan here?

W. Deranged · #2 08-03-2005, 03:19 PM

Edited: I thought this was a steal situation originally.

1. Pre-flop reraise is not automatic. Gap effect kicks in here; behind all those limpers, the raiser is raising a legit hand here and you are not going to be that far ahead of it. The profile, though, suggests he might be raising some value type hands like suited broadways. I don't like calling here, though, because it does nothing to improve your chance of winning. So I guess I raise to isolate. Suited I actually think a call might be good here because playing a monster multi-way pot with AQs and awesome relative position rules.

2. Flop is routine.

3. Turn is odd. I doubt villain has a flush. He more likely doesn't want to give a free card to a random club. My guess is you are still well ahead.

4. I don't like waiting until the river to raise, because a club could put us in a bad position (we're not really raising a club river, are we?) and/or kill our action. The turn bet doesn't look like a pure bluff here, so I'm not worried about losing bluffing action. It may be a semi-bluff or something and we want to charge those.

So, I raise the turn. If you get three-bet, come back and we'll talk some more, and hopefully at that point you can give us the useful PT statistics, like WTSD and post flop agg. factor.

SeaEagle · #3 08-03-2005, 03:28 PM

CO will raise with a fair number of hands here and I think the PF 3-bet is in order. You're fortunate that all 3 limpers folded though.

I'd raise the turn. I think CO is betting a draw (or weaker hand) more often than not. If he's beating you, he's probably going to 3-bet and, absent a read, you can safely fold.

Fat Nicky · #4 08-03-2005, 03:31 PM

yeaaaaa, raising the turn is pimp!!! I see this bets come out of nowhere with hands like KQ with the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. If he was really that strong, he probably would have check-raise the turn instead. The donk bet doesn't really convince me that i'm beat.

AdamL · #5 08-03-2005, 03:36 PM

The question is, if you raise the turn....

a) do you take the free showdown when no clubs come on the river?

b) if another club does come, do you clarkmeister it or do you check through? Do you call a donk bet? (I don't...?)

meep_42 · #6 08-03-2005, 03:36 PM

PFR could be raising 9T-KQs here, or 99-JJ.

-d

damaniac · #7 08-03-2005, 03:39 PM

Yeah I like raising the turn, but since we do have 4 outs, I kind of hate putting in 3 bets on the turn, since we obviously have to call a 3-bet. If he is very likely to bluff a missed draw on the river, too, I'd consider just calling down, since you are not losing much (since you get 2 bets when you raise the turn when he's on a draw, lose 3 when behind and he 3-bets, but often get 2 when he is just bluffing if he usually follows through). This any good?

W. Deranged · #8 08-03-2005, 03:39 PM

1. I think if called and checked to on the river I'm probably betting. I think hero is still ahead here very, very often. A river check-raise sucks but I choose not to live my live in fear of river check-raises.

2. Clarkmeister has no power here because you are out of position. I'd be wary of calling a donkbet here. The rare times I'll call a donkbet against a hand like this are against maniacs and known 2+2ers, who are known to know Clarkmeister's theorem and bet any four suited river.

W. Deranged · #9 08-03-2005, 03:41 PM

I don't agree that we have four outs and I don't agree that we have to call down a turn three bet.

I think we have only two outs (the queens) usually when behind.

In fact, it is EXACTLY because we have so few outs that we raise the turn. This is a classic example of where it is correct to play the turn aggressively with few outs.

If we had a decent club (like the K, though not necessarily the A) I think a much, much better argument could be made for calling down.

SeaEagle · #10 08-03-2005, 03:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
a) do you take the free showdown when no clubs come on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think a free showdown is in order against most cards. Villian's most likely hand is a draw (typically a club with a straight draw of some type). Villian's second most likely hand is a hand that's beating you. In either case, you gain nothing by betting on the end.

[ QUOTE ]
b) if another club does come, do you clarkmeister it or do you check through? Do you call a donk bet? (I don't...?)

[/ QUOTE ]
Likewise, I check through on a 4th club. He's not folding many hands that beat you and he's not calling with any that you beat. And I don't call a donk bet on a 4th club either.