stars 30 60,

[jba]

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i dont see how calling the river can be wrong if betting the turn for a free showdown is right. can you please explain?

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when you improve on the river you get to put in 2BBs.

also if he has diamonds (very possible) you are making <1bb by checking and calling river, >1bb when betting turn for free showdown.

[baronzeus]

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i dont see how calling the river can be wrong if betting the turn for a free showdown is right. can you please explain?

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when you improve on the river you get to put in 2BBs.

also if he has diamonds (very possible) you are making <1bb by checking and calling river, >1bb when betting turn for free showdown.

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i know this, but you improve 1 in 4.5 times, or about 22%. So you gain .22BBs, which is partially offset by the times you are check-raised here, meaning you actually gain less, perhaps around .10BBs (possibly even less, since his line is extremely suspicious and smells like QJ). Compared to the size of the pot, this is a fairly miniscule amount, so if you think betting the turn is OK then calling the river must be OK.


for the diamonds, if you bet the turn and check-behind on the river, you lose 1bet regardless of whether or not he hits.

i think he bluffs the river with a TON of missed draws when you check the turn, so i think you are better off using this line and folding if a diamond hits.

[etizzle]

I'm just saying that betting and then checking behind on the river is an ok line. Once we've checked the turn though it just depends how often he'll bluff.

I do agree that if we are likely to have him beat on the turn (meaning that we should bet), then we should be calling the river when we do in fact check.

After all this htough I just dont think we are in the lead often enough after the turn.

[baronzeus]

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I'm just saying that betting and then checking behind on the river is an ok line. Once we've checked the turn though it just depends how often he'll bluff.

I do agree that if we are likely to have him beat on the turn (meaning that we should bet), then we should be calling the river when we do in fact check.

After all this htough I just dont think we are in the lead often enough after the turn.

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agree, i think you should fold. i dont think you should bet the turn either, because you can't fold to a raise, and i dont think you are protecting your hand. just take the free card and fold UI.

[TStoneMBD]

if you want to see a showdown i think betting the turn is the worst of the 2 lines.

[Surfbullet]

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i dont see how calling the river can be wrong if betting the turn for a free showdown is right. can you please explain?

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when you improve on the river you get to put in 2BBs.

also if he has diamonds (very possible) you are making <1bb by checking and calling river, >1bb when betting turn for free showdown.

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I just typed up a huge explanation on why I think your reasoning may be a bit backwards regarding the amount we make with the bet-check line vs the check-call line (against what is often a FD)...but the DAMN server upgrades wiped what I typed when I hit the back button on my browser to look at the OP again...

anyway, it hinges on the fact that he wont call a river bet when we improve, and he will suck out a rpetty significant %age of the time so our turn bet doesnt profit us too much... while we can make better decisions on the river by folding to his bet when the flush card hits and calling when it doesn't, so we make almost a full BB by snapping off a river bluff (assuming he is aggressive enough to bet most/all rivers).

I'm kind of torn here about the merits of calling a river bet, but I think I agree that the turn check is usually a big hand or a draw that made a pair and wants to see a showdwon, so good fold on the river.

Surf