20-40 Taj Hand...Time to get creative or do you have to hit?

Jeffage · #1 07-07-2003, 05:17 PM

I played this hand in a very good 20-40 game at the Taj and thought it was somewhat interesting. I have 6h4h in the BB. 3 people limp, and the SB (a very loose aggressive but also somewhat tricky player) raises. He could have any two suited or a big hand, he likes to pump the pot preflop. I call, limpers call. 5 players, $200 pot. The flop comes 9h 3d 10s giving me nothing, but it gets checked around. The turn is the Qh giving me a 4flush. It gets checked to me and I fire in $40 in an effort to win right there. It gets folded around to the aggressive SB who now checkraises. This seems suspect to me...one, if you're going for a checkraise on the flop and miss you'd usually lead the turn...same as if you hit the Queen in your hand. This player is quite tricky and capable of sensing I'm trying to steal and putting in a raise to resteal since everyone folded. He could of course have a hand but the pattern seems bizarre. Would anyone take it to $120 against this player (who could lay down a better hand potentiall). Or is this a spot where you need to hit so you should just call and fold to a riv bet if you miss. I have a somewhat tight image and a turn reraise may get him to fold a big pair. What do you think and if you advocate raising, how often would you do it in this spot. Comments appreciated...results later.

Jeff

Ector · #2 07-07-2003, 05:36 PM

Most players would bet the flop with any hand after they raise. Wouldnt that indicate that he has a big hand, like a set or so? What hand could he possibly have raised with that he didnt want to bet on that flop unless he hit the flop real hard? Maybe he had KJ, decided not to bet the flop and then on turn hoped to trap somebody who hit the Q. I´d say he has a set on the flop or less likely KJ or 2 hearts. Anyway, I would call here and fold to a riverbet if i didnt hit, but then again, im a softie.

Jeffage · #3 07-07-2003, 05:46 PM

"Most players would bet the flop with any hand after they raise. Wouldnt that indicate that he has a big hand, like a set or so?"

I agree in some ways but this particular player does many things that defy logic including raising out of position and then checking with a big hand sometimes, sometimes not...he is a tough player to typecast.

Jeff

DaBartman · #4 07-07-2003, 05:57 PM

The solution here was to muck that piece of cheese pre-flop.

Jeffage · #5 07-07-2003, 06:02 PM

I disagree. I think the call is fine out of the BB when the loose SB raises in a multiway pot...if the hand is offsuit I muck. In HPFAP, S&M say you can defend your BB with 54s but fold 54o because the 54s has two ways to win...flush or straight. Obviously, I'm not defending my BB to a legit UTG raise and one caller but I felt this scenario was different though I will admit the call may be a tad loose. I respect your advice however and would like to hear your thoughts on the rest of the hand.

Thanks,
Jeff

MrHeadsUp · #6 07-07-2003, 06:31 PM

Jeffage · #7 07-07-2003, 09:39 PM

"why you bet the turn,take a free cards"

Because I'd like to take a shot at winning this hand on the turn without having to hit my hand...eventually the cards break even; sometimes u have to steal pots.

Jeff

DaBartman · #8 07-08-2003, 11:21 AM

Hi Jeffage
Just got back here. Hand created quite a thread! You asked for some comments on the rest of the hand. The turn bet is fine, it looks like you may have spiked a queen for a good pair or maybe even str8! w/KJ. Anyway, it is very unlikely you will win without betting. As for considering a re-steal, at this point I feel you must catch your opponet without a pair to be successful. Given the pot size and it will cost him two bets to see it through you will get called at the river (assuming you follow through if you miss). Oh hell, this is really difficult for me, trying to be completely objective when I (90% of the time

), would not have been in the same situation. And yes, I agree his turn check was suspect. Even if he held the KJs, a bet by him is really the correct way to go. But then again if he did hold the KJ or KJs would not the Q have likely helped another hand? Lotsa folks still in the pot still. If he had planned on a flop checkraise with QQ, had it foiled and checked the turn, well that was just bad poker. Come to think of it the ONLY hand worth checking the turn would be Kh Jh. I would not be afraid to give a free card here. Anyway, I want to read how this hand came out, so see ya!

bernie · #9 07-08-2003, 01:39 AM

it's a better defense if the guy was UTG. because then there is less likely of a reraise behind you since youre closer to closing the action.

i wouldnt call this in this spot preflop.

b

rtrombone · #10 07-07-2003, 07:17 PM

I agree that the turn check-raise is suspicious. AQ or any set would have bet the turn for fear of it getting checked through again. A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] or A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] would likely also have bet after picking up so many outs.

He's probably raising because he thinks you have nothing. The problem is that he's right; unless you improve you will lose to ace-high in a showdown. If he's good, 3-betting the turn won't necessarily change his read. He may still be willing to show down with ace high.

Don't 3-bet the turn. It seems like whenever I try this stunt I just cost myself more money because I never get there. If you're going to put a play on him, you may want to raise the river or bet if checked to. I fear you will frequently still get called when you do this, though. If a non-heart 6 or 4 falls at the river, definitely call or bet if checked to.