QQ - Raise/fold the turn

Evan · #1 11-08-2005, 07:11 PM

JBB didn't like this hand, I think it's good.
BB is loose passive, UTG is unknown

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.83 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12.83 BB

jph0424 · #2 11-08-2005, 07:33 PM

I may call turn and river rather than raising here. With the way you played it, after he three bets a fold is definitely good.

matt hooley · #3 11-08-2005, 07:37 PM

why not call the turn and raise-fold a river blank?

W. Deranged · #4 11-08-2005, 08:27 PM

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why not call the turn and raise-fold a river blank?

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I think any line that commits to putting 3 BB into this pot cannot possibly be right. What is a river blank going to do for us anyway? Usually if we're behind we're way behind or at best drawing to a chop against a set. Villain is very unlikely to still be drawing at a gutshot or something. If the river improves anyone it'll probably be the BB because we've let him stay and draw really cheap.

So waiting until the river here to raise sucks.

I also don't really like calling down. And folding seems way too weak.

So I like Evan's raise fold. I think Bobbyi's comment is a good one, but I think that it's pretty rare that we are going to get three-bet by anything but a straight here, so I'm really not that worried about folding a live draw (mostly to half the pot) against a set.

Borodog · #5 11-08-2005, 08:33 PM

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but I think that it's pretty rare that we are going to get three-bet by anything but a straight here

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I'm not certain I agree. The way Hero played this hand it's pretty clear to the Villain that he has only a big pocket pair, and any 2 pair or set is good. Am I wrong?

W. Deranged · #6 11-08-2005, 08:41 PM

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but I think that it's pretty rare that we are going to get three-bet by anything but a straight here

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I'm not certain I agree. The way Hero played this hand it's pretty clear to the Villain that he has only a big pocket pair, and any 2 pair or set is good. Am I wrong?

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This part depends entirely on whether or not UTG has any idea what he is doing. You'd be amazed how often in live games (including at the 15/30-30/60 level I was playing over the weekend) you'll hear players comment that "I thought you had XX" when even the most basic hand-reading suggests that XX would be basically impossible.

Your point is well-taken, though, and I think is a very good reason for why such a raise would not be well-advised against a solid and observant player.

matt hooley · #7 11-08-2005, 10:01 PM

can't the unknown villian easily be 3-beting here with 99-JJ? who knows, maybe he has a read on hero and is trying to make a play. raising the turn donk just seems to get us into trouble that's why I liked calling the turn. The raise-fold on the river was an idea from SSH, when you do not want overcalls, but I realize this would be a misaplication and given that this is likely WA/WB situation I don't think it is correct after all.
so what's so bad about a call down?

Evan · #8 11-08-2005, 10:22 PM

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can't the unknown villian easily be 3-beting here with 99-JJ?

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I don't think he ever has 99-JJ here.

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maybe he has a read on hero and is trying to make a play.

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I think that's assuming quite a bit, don't you? I mean, hell, I don't even think I'd bluff 3 bet myself here...and I know me pretty well.

Alex/Mugaaz · #9 11-08-2005, 10:24 PM

You're missing the fact that he can "make a play" with a legitimate hand that you're not that far behind while at the same time not realizing it.

#10 11-08-2005, 07:39 PM

If UTG is able to hand read at all, why can't he be 3 betting 2 pair?