AQ SB Hand

[durron597]

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My problem with raising here, even raising a lot, is I will likely have multiple callers and likely miss the flop. Also, I would not say there is nearly that high a chance I have the best hand since I am behind all pairs, and players with pairs are not folding at this level in my (limited) experience. If I raise, there is a good chance they won't fold postflop, either, so I am left in a tough spot if I miss since a continuation is not very effective here, but if I hit I could easily stack someone with a middling pair (less chance if I hit the ace).

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I think raising here with AQ is -EV, for the above reasons. Maybe I play better postflop now, I dunno, but when I raised AQ out of the blinds it always hosed me. Maybe that's not the case in the buyins where Irie plays.

The thing is, when you choose not to raise AQ, your hand strength is disguised. As far as everyone else knows, you voluntarily chose to put in 5 more chips - which you might do with any two. So everyone expects you to check this flop - do it! When it gets back to you, which it almost certainly will be with this many opponents, put in a nice sized checkraise designed to get draws to make a mistake.

The checkraise is the awesome tool of the out of position player. Learn it, live it, love it.

[bigt439]

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[ QUOTE ]
My problem with raising here, even raising a lot, is I will likely have multiple callers and likely miss the flop. Also, I would not say there is nearly that high a chance I have the best hand since I am behind all pairs, and players with pairs are not folding at this level in my (limited) experience. If I raise, there is a good chance they won't fold postflop, either, so I am left in a tough spot if I miss since a continuation is not very effective here, but if I hit I could easily stack someone with a middling pair (less chance if I hit the ace).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising here with AQ is -EV, for the above reasons. Maybe I play better postflop now, I dunno, but when I raised AQ out of the blinds it always hosed me. Maybe that's not the case in the buyins where Irie plays.

The thing is, when you choose not to raise AQ, your hand strength is disguised. As far as everyone else knows, you voluntarily chose to put in 5 more chips - which you might do with any two. So everyone expects you to check this flop - do it! When it gets back to you, which it almost certainly will be with this many opponents, put in a nice sized checkraise designed to get draws to make a mistake.

The checkraise is the awesome tool of the out of position player. Learn it, live it, love it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is tough though when your hand is disguised because then you're like oh sweet they're playing back at my tptk because they have no idea how strong I am. And then you get stacked by two pair or a set or something. Huge oversimplification, but you get the point. I raise here for what it's worth and what I wrote above is NOT my only justification.

[Jbrochu]

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I think raising here with AQ is -EV, for the above reasons. Maybe I play better postflop now, I dunno, but when I raised AQ out of the blinds it always hosed me. Maybe that's not the case in the buyins where Irie plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you nailed it right there regarding the buyin level. At the higher buyin's, you can reasonably expect to narrow the field or even take it down pre-flop - which is nice since you're out of position. You are also gaining some information from anybody that calls.

At the lower buyin's, it's not unusual for all of the limpers to happily call your raise. You're left with no more information than you had, the pot is now large, and you're out of position.

[bigt439]

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What would your opponents most hate you to do here preflop, after they have all limped hoping to hit a flop cheaply?

Therefore, what should you do?

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This is flawed logic for reasons that fnord mentioned, but especially because this is a sng and not a ring game. Dynamics are different.

[durron597]

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I think you nailed it right there regarding the buyin level. At the higher buyin's, you can reasonably expect to narrow the field or even take it down pre-flop - which is nice since you're out of position. You are also gaining some information from anybody that calls.

At the lower buyin's, it's not unusual for all of the limpers to happily call your raise. You're left with no more information than you had, the pot is now large, and you're out of position.

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Exactly. And you're more likely to lose your stack to a set since the pot is already large on the flop (and a PP will call your raise anyway unless it's very large).

[jeffraider]

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What would your opponents most hate you to do here preflop, after they have all limped hoping to hit a flop cheaply?

Therefore, what should you do?

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PUSH ALL-IN!!!!

Playing a big pot out of position with AQ = suckiness.

[citanul]

a couple things:

1) was your intention to 3 bet push in over a raise with non insane action on the flop? and/or call a push?

2) this thread contains some decent discussion, but also some of the worst advice i've seen in a long time.

c

[Scuba Chuck]

Fnord, I often just complete from the SB in these situations. If it were one level higher, I would just push preflop, and pickup the chips. Anyhow, these are my thoughts when I limp a hand like AQ into a multiway pot.

If I intend to lead the flop, and I get more than one caller, I often play very timid following. I am not married to this hand, at this time.

If I check-raise the flop, and someone just calls. Then I'm looking for draws.

Good luck.

[microbet]

I'm not real consistent here myself preflop, but I think if you limp in you have to give up on the idea that you are likely to win a big pot with just a pair of aces or queens. Top pair is just not very good when 6 people see the flop.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
a couple things:

1) was your intention to 3 bet push in over a raise with non insane action on the flop? and/or call a push?

2) this thread contains some decent discussion, but also some of the worst advice i've seen in a long time.

c

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1) My intention was not to three bet on the flop, and possibly to fold if there was a raise depending on circumstance. With 5 other players and a coordinated board of middles, I am not going to throw a lot of chips in here if someone fights back.

2) I am still thinking about this. I originally posted it just as a pot control hand, because this the type of hand I see a lot of people doubling someone up with. Now I am thinking I misplayed this preflop and that in the 33's there is some real value to raising pf here to thin the field and set up a post flop situation where you will be lead/folding, check/folding, or getting all your chips in where one party overvalues their hand (and hopefully that party isn't you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ). In the 55's I would be much more leary of playing this hand in that manner, but I am really shocked at some of the play I am seeing in the 33's, it is beyond bad. I'm tempted to try some lower level STT's to see if it can possibly get worse.