What do I keep doing wrong to be -BB/100? Help please.

Wada · #1 06-12-2004, 05:53 PM

Can someone just give me a rough idea of what I can improve on with looking at the 4 hands while looking at my PT stats (small sample size) - Please go easy....need some guidance and constructive help. I feel like I just not catching on with some things. Lost $60 bucks in last two sessions at .5/1.

Currently -
2k Hands
V$IP = 31.43 - Ive been trying to get this down. It was once at 45. I notice under positional stats that I have a high V$IP along with a high loss rate from the blinds. I believe this is what is killing me but I am not absolutely sure due to not being extremely familiar with PT.

W$WSF% = 24.75
BB/100 = (4.75)
WSD% = 37.13
W$SD% = 45.08
PFR% = 9.47

Please do not say it - I already know 2k hands is small amount! I dont want to come back here with 10k hands when Im down -500BB/100 to find out what I did wrong. I know 2k is small amount but I can atleast get a head start on things now while I climb up to 10k hands.

Hand 1
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Wada is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Wada raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Wada bets, MP2 raises, SB folds, Wada calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Wada checks, MP2 bets, Wada calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Wada checks, MP2 bets, Wada calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Wada shows Kd Qh (one pair, kings).
MP2 shows Ah Ks (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins 9.50 BB. 

Hand 2
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Wada is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Wada raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Wada bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Wada bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (14 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Wada bets, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB raises, Wada calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Results in white below: 
BB shows 6d 5s (three of a kind, sixes).
Wada shows Kh Jh (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: BB wins 18 BB. 

Hand 3
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Wada is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, Wada raises, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Wada calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Wada calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, Wada folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG shows Ac 3c (two pair, aces and threes).
UTG+1 shows Td 5d (straight, six high).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 18.25 BB. 

Hand 4
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Wada is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Wada raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Wada bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Wada bets, UTG+1 raises, MP3 calls, Wada calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls, Wada calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 shows Ah As (one pair, aces).
MP3 shows Kh 9h (one pair, kings).
Wada shows Ad Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 14.25 BB.

Zeiros · #2 06-12-2004, 06:08 PM

The VP$IP is way too high, perhaps you could try getting a copy of the Lee Jones book and sticking very, very rigidly to the hand guidelines that he sets out each position. This alone will bring the VP$IP down. I don't have time to look over the hands right now but will come back and edit this post later.

Also, how about finding a site that offers 0.05/0.10. These games are often very much softer than 0.50/1 and would provide an excellent place to get a fresh start.

sublime · #3 06-12-2004, 06:14 PM

The VP$IP is way too high, perhaps you could try getting a copy of the Lee Jones book and sticking very, very rigidly to the hand guidelines that he sets out each position. This alone will bring the VP$IP down. I don't have time to look over the hands right now but will come back and edit this post later.

Or wait until Ed's book comes out and save yourself the trouble of un-learning a lot of bad habits.

2k hands is not a lot, but even when I am running well my VP$IP is not that high.

elitegimp · #4 06-12-2004, 06:23 PM

it would help get a feel for V$IP if you could outline what hands you play and where you play them from. For example, this is my list (not 100% accurate, but good enough):

Anywhere: from any position, I will play pocket pairs, Axs, AKo, AQo, and KQs. (With few exceptions, such as 22 in MP with an UTG raise and folds to me).

Mid-Position: I add KQo, KJs to K8s, and big suited connectors (87s and bigger)

Late Position: I will throw in Kxs if there are a decent number of limpers and no raises, as well as some Axo (mostly x>7)

obviously playing a specific hand depends on the action and the table, but those are rough guidelines I try to follow. I would guess that you are playing Axo too much, as well as possibly Kxo and Qxo... A6o is not a good hand, especially in early position.

cold_cash · #5 06-12-2004, 06:46 PM

I was just skimming through here really quick and thought I'd pipe up briefly.

Go back and look at your play on the river in hand #2 and re-think the reasons behind it. Why you bet? What were you hoping to accomplish with it? Why did you call the raise?

Take that same logic and look at some of the other bets/calls you made in the other hands and see if there's an existing pattern, or one developing. Go back through these yourself first, and try to objectively explain why you made such-and-such a play.

Also, I don't know about everyone else, but if I see a post with 5 or 6 hands in it, I don't even read it. It's too much of a pain going back and forth in a single post/reply. After you've thought about them, maybe take a couple out that are really sticking in your craw and post them seperately, along some of your thoughts.

Party on.

dfscott · #6 06-12-2004, 07:12 PM

I started at PS .05/.10 -- a very inexpensive school. After 10K hands, I moved to .25/.50, which is tougher. I could probably make a ton of money right now at Party .5/1, but I feel like the discipline of building my BR gradually will make me a better player and allow me to eventually pass .5/1 and move up to tougher games.

I agree with everyone else that your VP$IP is too high. A quick fix is to stop playing just about everything from EP. Throw away everything except pairs, AXs, and really big cards (AK, AQ, KQ, but not AJ or QJ unless they're suited). This is probably too tight, long-term, but it's a good way to tighten up quickly. Another thing is not to call raises cold pre-flop. Both of these make your post-flop play easier.

Shalara · #7 06-12-2004, 07:20 PM

I abandoned my PokerTracker pretty early on... I don't even have enough stats in it to hazard a guess as to what my norm is. Nonetheless, I'll give it a try.

I *think* pre-flop raising looks a little low, but I'm not certain. I'm sure someone with more knowledge and experience will weigh in on this though.

I agree that it is important to find leaks as fast as you can--waiting til 10,000 hands is silly. I am not a statistician; I do not know the exact number you need to have a fair idea of how well you're doing, but I definitely think it's good to monitor your game both when you feel you're on top of it, and when you're losing. Good on you, taking the time to check on that.

.5/1 is a very LAGgy game. While it's pretty profitable overall, the swings can get pretty harsh. A couple bad sessions back to back can make even a solid and confident player somewhat concerned about their play, imo. It doesn't mean that something is wrong necessarily.

Hand One: Raise pre-flop is perfect. 3-bet the flop. Not only do you have top pair here, but you are also OESD. I'd bet the turn and river too. This time you got hit, but the aggression will help you far more often than not.

Hand Two: I personally don't raise KJs pre-flop in early. I like the flop bet. I don't like the turn though; at these limits, no one will fold a single pair. You have yet to hit the flush or any overcards. Here is where I check-call, and be prepared to check-fold the river if it doesn't help.

Hand Three: Pre-flop is good. Ugh, flop. Hate it when that happens. Personally, I raise or fold that flop. There are so many people in that someone assuredly has an ace. Since UTG came out betting, you can be certain he has an ace. Your hand is no good. I'd muck it. I raise it when I think a weak ace will fold. [not often] I come out betting if I am first to act so that no one represents an ace and swipes it. But in that case, I'd be nearly 100% certain I'm beat.

Hand Four: I'd play the exact same way. UTG+1 should be hung by the nostrils for wasting such a beautiful hand. Be thankful he was an idiot... he could have cost you a bundle.

Jaran · #8 06-12-2004, 07:34 PM

Excellent post, Cold. Wada, I was trying to figure out what your plan was with a couple of these hands, and just couldn't follow your thinking. Maybe if you took some time and wrote down your thoughts on these hands, and then posted the ones you're confused on, we could give you some specific pointers.

-Jaran

holeplug · #9 06-12-2004, 07:47 PM

Normally I would just figure you had a bad run of cards but your VP$IP is so high that I think you need to get your hands on a good holdem book. Whether you want to wait an extra month for NPA Ed Miller's book or get Lee Jones's is up to you but it looks like your struggling with very basic preflop hand selection at this point.

Zeiros · #10 06-12-2004, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Or wait until Ed's book comes out and save yourself the trouble of un-learning a lot of bad habits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggested this as an immediate, simple piece of advice. Taking one's lead from a pretty respectable book is probably one of the best courses of action for a beginning player.

All beginning books on poker will (I'm assuming Ed Miller's will be no different) have many, many, many more similarities than differences in the starting hand requirements -- following any book will be an improvement than playing almost one in three hands as the VP$IP suggests.

I found the Jones book very easy to follow, and by breaking it down into the different positions he made it easy for me to get my pre-flop play approximately right to begin with before learning when exactly to be a bit looser or tighter than the book suggests.

And besides, Ed's book isn't out until 'late July' so somebody playing poker now will benifit from more immediate input.