($27) - Early JJ POST-flop...big pot, multiway

[bluefeet]

Very early, no notes
$25+2 Turbo
Seat 1: (1820 in chips)
Seat 2: (1510 in chips)
Seat 3: (1390 in chips)
Seat 4: (1460 in chips)
Seat 5: (1540 in chips)
Seat 6: (1060 in chips)
<font color="blue">bluefeet (1480 in chips) </font>
Seat 8: (2000 in chips)
Seat 9: (1240 in chips)
bluefeet: posts small blind 15
Seat 8: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bluefeet [Jh Jd]
1 fold
Seat 1: calls 30
Seat 2: raises 90 to 120
Seat 3: calls 120
3 folds
bluefeet: calls 105
1 fold
Seat 1: calls 90
*** FLOP *** [6h Kc 7d] .............pot=510
bluefeet: checks
Seat 1: checks
Seat 2: bets 120
Seat 3: folds
<font color="blue">bluefeet:???</font>


What do you do here? If your answer is something other than "fold", explore my turn options some (assuming we get there)...


(Early morning...late for bed - I'll have to check back in the morning)

[octaveshift]

I assume you just called because you wanted to see if the flop as AKQ-free? Bad news. It's not.

Looks like a standard C-bet from seat 2 though. Seems a bit timid. Could be an under pair like TT.

I think a raise would probably give you a pretty good sense of where you stand. If he reraises, drop it. If he calls, I pray for a jack on the turn, and then check/fold when it doesn't show.

(I know I just typed the above, but now I get the sense this line is flawed. Can someone decent please chime in and tell me if it is?)

Drop it...it's early. Wait for a better spot with a lot less thinking involved

[cha59]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you just called because you wanted to see if the flop as AKQ-free? Bad news. It's not.

Looks like a standard C-bet from seat 2 though. Seems a bit timid. Could be an under pair like TT.

I think a raise would probably give you a pretty good sense of where you stand. If he reraises, drop it. If he calls, I pray for a jack on the turn, and then check/fold when it doesn't show.

(I know I just typed the above, but now I get the sense this line is flawed. Can someone decent please chime in and tell me if it is?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your thought process here. The only possible flaw I can think of at the moment is:

How much do you raise? I think if you are going to raise, it should be a convincing raise. The problem is, I dont think you want to raise half your stack here. Is a bet smaller than half your stack going to accomplish anything?

I dunno, I'm weak tight sometimes, but I'm thinking maybe Ive spent enough chips on this hand already.

[DawnToDusk]

I don't want to give a ton of credit to the preflop raiser for being a card playing genious here, but with that said I think there are two things here that we can do.

1)Check-raise here
If we wanted to continue with this hand, I would certainly want to know where I was at. I think calling in this position is only a mistake. With that being said, I don't know if anything but a pot sized bet will work. He is showing weakness here, but raising anything less than 360 will be giving him like 4-1 odds (its late and my brain is off. correct me if I am wrong). But what if we didn't want to commit that many chips right now? What if we took a different line and looked to attack on the turn or river?

2)Smooth calling here
This is a tough situation to smooth call in. You don't know anything about your opponents holding or where you stand. Yet what if we can exploit that down the road if he shows weakness on the turn? What if calling here and checking the turn would induce him to check too? Obviously you showed that you had a hand PF when you called and also that you had a hand on the flop when you called OOP too. Dependent on what the river is, maybe a bet of 300 will win the pot for you? It isn't investing as much as the pot sized raise (not by much - still late at night. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] ), but if he checks on the the turn maybe he is willing to drop it. What do you guys htink of this line?

[Augie]

(I mostly play the $16s, but occasionally venture into the $27s)

Preflop, and early in the SNG, I like the call.

Flop: In this situation, this is a BAD flop for you. If you were heads up, or had position and everyone checks, then you can consider playing this flop.

You are out of position v. 3 opponents, the flop did not improve your hand, and it is early in the SNG ... check/fold.

That being said, if you choose to play, I think you should bet out. If you get more than 1 caller, you are done with the hand (unless you spike a turn J, of course). If you get raised you are done with the hand. If you get 1 caller . . . you may possibly continue on.

But why give yourself these headaches, check/fold this pimple of a hand and wait for a better spot. Besides, you have action on your other X number of tables.

Be good,

Augie

[adanthar]

This is perfect right up until the part where, because you're OOP and taking pots away with a call can't be done, you fold it.

Difficult hand to play.

Getting 5-1 odds to see the turn is very tempting.

However, you are against 4 (well 3) people in a raised pot. You don't close the flop action. There is only 2 cards that improve your hand. It's early in the tournament and the real edge I find in these turbos is getting AA,KK all in early against a donk or stealing once the blinds get huge. Therefore I think you should fold here even if you actually have a small edge.

[bluefeet]

[cont.]

Very early, no notes
$25+2 Turbo
Seat 1: (1820 in chips)
Seat 2: (1510 in chips)
Seat 3: (1390 in chips)
Seat 4: (1460 in chips)
Seat 5: (1540 in chips)
Seat 6: (1060 in chips)
<font color="blue">bluefeet (1480 in chips) </font>
Seat 8: (2000 in chips)
Seat 9: (1240 in chips)
bluefeet: posts small blind 15
Seat 8: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bluefeet [Jh Jd]
1 fold
Seat 1: calls 30
Seat 2: raises 90 to 120
Seat 3: calls 120
3 folds
bluefeet: calls 105
1 fold
Seat 1: calls 90
*** FLOP *** [6h Kc 7d] .............pot=510
<font color="blue">bluefeet: checks </font>
Seat 1: checks
Seat 2: bets 120
Seat 3: folds
<font color="blue">bluefeet: raises 150 to 270</font>
Seat 1: folds
Seat 2: calls 150
*** TURN *** [6h Kc 7d] [Tc] .............pot=1050
<font color="blue">bluefeet: ??? </font>


Ok. I don't disagree. I could/should have just as easily folded. But...

[FPS discussion following....all be it a little interesting I think]

He "only" bet about 1/4 the pot. With this size of a pot, the BB and the EP limp/caller having checked, still 3 other hands at the table, his c/b was a little fishy to me. It's almost too inviting. Either way scared/"damn, i have to bet something don't i?", or a monster like KK. I think even AA/AK would be value betting at least 1/2 here - having a PF cold-caller behind still to act. It just too small of a bet IMO, giving 6:1 (or better) back to the blind/EP.

When MP1 folded, the only other guy in the pot with me was UTG. Having limp/called PF, I didn't give him too much consideration. So...c/r seemed like an option.

This is where I got stuck a bit. IMO I should have raised a little more...with full intention of laying it down to a reraise, but enough to get him to laydown QQ, TT, etc. But then again, too strong might be a little fishy too. If I was confident in my hand, facing a likely HU to the turn, might I not encourage a call?

Well, as you can see, he did call. Hmmmm....

[Augie]

bluefeet,

This JJ hand of yours nicely illustrates how playing questionable hands OOP can be extremely difficult.

Summary: After you C/R, the pot is sitting at 1050, you have about 1100 in chips and your opponent about the same. The board is somewhat dicey, and you are out of position.

Now that he has called your checkraise, the pot size, and the stack sizes pose a real problem, I think. There is almost no bet that you can make that will allow you to get away from the hand if he raises. (Notice that if you check and he moves Allin, you are almost getting 2-1 on your money)

Considering that he raised preflop, bet the flop, and called your checkraise . . . he seems to like his hand some. Take this opportunity to check the turn.

If he bets, well, you are probably being milked at this point, but it's hard not to call a bet of say 250, with the odds you are getting.

Honestly, I don't have any answers, because I try to avoid these situations. In fact, aren't these the exact spots that the weaker players get themselves into, and bleed off their chips to the better players?

After he calls your C/R, you are almost forced into a check and call strategy; and calling, well, we don't want that to be our Station in life, do we?

Be good,

Augie