How many streets did I misplay?

[topspin]

Converter doesn't seem to like the hand so a few manual fixes went in.

Been playing at the table for a while now. Button is loosey-passive preflop and likes to cold-call with all sorts of hands, but doesn't raise much preflop. Postflop he switches gears and will fire away with marginal hands like 2nd pair and worse -- he 3-bet me on the turn once with 2nd pair poor kicker. He's also prone to bluffing postflop if he feels like he might pick up the pot.

BB is a rock; his VPIP over the last 50 hands is under 10. Consequently I've seen him enter around 10 hands and frankly his postflop play hasn't made much of an impression -- mostly he's called or folded, and may have bet once or twice, but I haven't seen him raise yet.

Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero raises, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 8SB)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets,SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

With a relatively large field and a coordinated board, I opt to check-call here. Given button's style of play it's pretty hard for me to put him on a good hand and fold, so I'd like to see a turn, but I'd rather not worry about paying 2 bets to do so.

Note that I'm not really worried about draws since I can't force anyone out anyways, and I'm most likely still drawing myself.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 5.5BB)</font>
BB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, BB check-raises, Hero folds.

Two decisions here -- the leading out, then the fold. I debated check-raising, but my hand isn't really one that likes to build a big pot, plus there's some (small) chance Button checks it through, and now I have enough of a hand that I don't want to give any free cards.

When BB check-raises, I'm pretty sure he's got a good hand and is beating top pair. At the time I had him pegged for the flush, althogh this may be too narrow a range in retrospect. My one-card flush draw probably is worth a few outs, and I may have outs to counterfeit a two pair type of hand. (I'm getting 1:8.5 in immediate odds.)

In retrospect, I think calling and folding the river UI would have been better...

EDIT: Fixed HH.

[Dave G.]

I'm not sure I'd be playing KTo from here, but if you're comfortable with this hand on this table then it's fine.

Your flop call is a bit thin. You're getting 10:1 for your money. Your overcards aren't worth 3 outs I don't think; the T gives additional possibilities to straight draws and can be beaten by a higher card too. I think 0.75 outs for your backdoor flush draw is fair with only a T. So you have probably about 3.25 outs. You need about 14:1 to continue here and you're only getting 10:1. Seems like a good spot to fold.

BB could have a straight or a flush, or even two pair. I think folding the turn is wrong. You have a flush draw that'll be good some of the time and you've got further outs if he is raising it up with two pair.

So I agree with you. Calling the turn and folding the river UI seems good, but folding the flop is better.

[bozlax]

Preflop: not sure I raise this from MP3, given that you're not folding Button (CO?) if he has anything.

Flop: meh. Closing the action, I guess you're ok. If you hadn't raised preflop this would be an easy fold for me.

Turn: I think this fold is terrible. I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again, if you're only going to fold to a little bit of agression when you make your hand, why continue past the flop? Anyway, you know this, and you're right, you should've called the raise and check/folded the river UI. He might've just been taking a shot at you...you only have 50 hands on him, he may have been watching The Nick &amp; Jessica Fourth of July Spectacular on Tivo while bonus-clearing and the show just ended so he started paying attention again.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: not sure I raise this from MP3, given that you're not folding Button (CO?) if he has anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry about the mixup with the hand. Button/CO in the post were the same person (as I'm sure you've figured out).

It's unclear what action you're arguing for preflop. You can't open-limp any hand in MP3 -- you're either raising or folding. I'm perfectly happy to have Button cold-call with any random two cards. (In case the original read wasn't clear, this is essentially what he was doing -- he'd cold-call any two suited, connectors, one-gappers, etc etc.)

I think open-folding KTo is losing a lot of value here, and open-limping is pretty icky, so preflop was the street I'm most comfortable with [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
It's unclear what action you're arguing for preflop. You can't open-limp any hand in MP3 -- you're either raising or folding. I'm perfectly happy to have Button cold-call with any random two cards. (In case the original read wasn't clear, this is essentially what he was doing -- he'd cold-call any two suited, connectors, one-gappers, etc etc.)

I think open-folding KTo is losing a lot of value here, and open-limping is pretty icky, so preflop was the street I'm most comfortable with [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably unclear as I'm not entirely clear on it myself. I agree that open-limping from MP3, in most situations, sucks. But, I also hate raising KTo without a specific reason.

And, I think you're playing two different players...maybe CO/Button IS two people! Because if he's playing ANY two cards preflop, even against a raise, then the rest of the hand plays itself. You have overcards to the flop, you call. You make top pair, you see a showdown. If there's a question later in the hand, it's only because he might have a hand you have to worry about. Otherwise, your fold on the turn was the Worst. Fold. Ever.

Yeah. I just went back and re-read your read...and based on this added information he'll call anything preflop and then turn into a borderline maniac postflop. With top-pair, good kicker plus a four-flush, you have to call down. His raise means nothing. I might even advocate a 3-bet, as you're very likely to have the best hand, even if he does hold a king.

[TomBrooks]

What limit is this?

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
In retrospect, I think calling and folding the river UI would have been better...

[/ QUOTE ]

What cards are you looking for on the river? If you're feeling the flush on the turn, do you really want another spade? Are you looking for a 10 just to have a hand that is call worthy on the river?

[malorum]

If you raise pre-flop against poor players.
You should then often bet out on the flop when first to act against 3 players. I think in many weaker games, you get enough bad folds as well as bad calls to make it worth it.
If you get raised on the flop think about folding unless u have the odds to draw.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
What limit is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

1/2 full ring at Party.

I just noticed that I didn't manage to fix the whole hand. Button and CO in the hand are actually the same person.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In retrospect, I think calling and folding the river UI would have been better...

[/ QUOTE ]

What cards are you looking for on the river? If you're feeling the flush on the turn, do you really want another spade? Are you looking for a 10 just to have a hand that is call worthy on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm pretty confused about BB. I'm not sure what he'd call preflop from the blind with given his low VPIP. Two pair on this board seems unlikely unless it's 45s. A slowplayed set is possible, but then I have flush outs. A flush is possible, but given that 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] are out, any flush is likely to be bigger than mine since there aren't really any small suited connectors left.

Given that it's HU once Button folds, I'd call the river given pretty much any improved hand. I don't think I'd feel very good about any card though -- the interesting part about the turn decision is that I have lots of potential outs, but they all have to be severely discounted.

In a multi-way pot I'm more inclined towards a fold since I don't want to be giving reverse implied odds in case I improve my hand and still spew a lot of chips with a 3rd-best hand if there's a lot of raising, but HU I think I tossed this too quickly.