How important is math in poker?

I've been playing for about two years now (about 7-10 tournaments a week) at 10/1 NL Hold-Em SnG at Party Poker. Since I've started my bankroll has increased 5 fold, but math is rarely a factor in my decision making. I never find myself saying..."I'm 3-1 favorite to win the pot" or anything along those lines. Am I just getting lucky playing against weak players, at low limit tables, or is math not as important as it is hyped up to be?

[mittman84]

over rated big time. obviously you need to know the basic pot odds and such, but way over rated

The whole game is math. Some people can be successful by chance, and stumble upon general plays that somewhat correspond with the math behind it. But, the players that really understand the underlying mathematical concepts do significantly better and are much better and more adaptive players.

I don't always think of specific numbers, but for example in SSHE i memorized the basic probablilities of certain draws hitting, etc. In the middle of a hand (since I have a weak head for hard math on the fly) I rarely whip out the calculator, but I will compare my chance of hitting vs. what the pot is laying me. There won't be a moment where you realize "THat math based decision saved me money!" You'll just realize, "Hey, I would've tilted away those bets calling when I shouldn't have."

[BradleyT]

How do you determine whether to call when you have 44 in level 1, 2 or 3 and it's been raised to X?

[Good Friar]

Math is very important. Many players seem to think math is simply arithmetic and calculations. While most of these calculations are unnecessary since the decisions are often not close, you nonetheless make a decision using math almost every play. For example, suppose you raise from early position with pocket tens in hold'em, and a very tight player goes all-in against from late position. You narrow his hand range down to ak aq or jj-aa. And you would fold since in only two of those situations you are slightly aheaed, and in four your way behind. That is math, it is reasoning with quantities.

If math were not important, why would people be against bots or other computer aids

I believe that the math that you use is actually used subconsciously... For example you have a hand that you may play 10/J suited. But someone in front of you puts in a big raise and you decide not to play. You are using math skills to figure out that generally that is a losing bet, that you will be throwing your hand away after the flop and you will not be making money. Most of the math skills you use are probably approximations, but still math. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[gergery]

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How do you determine whether to call when you have 44 in level 1, 2 or 3 and it's been raised to X?

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You stare into his soul, of course. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

-g

[Vincent Lepore]

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is math not as important as it is hyped up to be

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Math is... everything? That is a question not a statement. Unlike Mike Caro I happen to be a propronent of learning the math of poker. It is a relatively simple thing to do and I've always believed very important to becoming a winning player. It is the prime reason that I migrated to the Sklansky & Malmuth way of playing poker.

But...but..not butt...but I have a buddy. He just may be the best mid limit player that I know. I'm sure he is the best at the limit he plays...well, pretty sure. O.K. maybe he is just one of the best at his limit but he is definitely one of the best. He does somewhat consider the math of poker when playing. But not precisely, I would say that he kind of guesses and has a general idea of what the right numbers might be but doesn't really concern himself much about it. I make him as the proverbial seat of the pants player with an O.K I'll give the math a little consideration attitude. I don't remember if it was Ray Zee or Mason that told me that you don't have to know the exact amount in the pot but you do need to have a good idea of how much is in it. Well it wouldn't matter if my buddy kneew how much is in the pot or not. He doesn't think in terms of outs vs pot odds. He plays according to what his instincts tell him. His instincts have treated him well for a long time. He does play somewhat according to the math of poker preflop. He makes calls according to pot size but he does it because his strategy calls for it. He will not call a raise unless he gets the right price according to his strategy. That's smart but it's not because he knows the math it's because he's memorized the numbers he needs to make certain calls. For instance and as a rough example if he has suited connectors he will only call a raise if he is getting 6 to 1 on the call. (I may be a little off on the numbers). He might be right to play this way but if you ask him why he needs 6 to 1 his answer will be "Because that's what my strategy calls for". Ask him why it calls for 6 to 1 and not 4 to 1 and he cannot answer other than to say that his strategy was developed by those that should know. I suppose that one could say that at least preflop he is using math to guide his decisions but I believe that is stretching things a bit.

The bottom line is that I believe that understanding and applying the math of poker is very important in becoming a winning player.There was a time I believed that to win in the Sklansky and Malmuth era where I felt most players would be playing according to modern poker theory that it wold be impossible to win without knowing and applying the math of poker. But I find that that is not true. Poker in B$M casinos is actually better (worse players) than it was just a few years ago. And online players are just horrible. And looking at my buddy's experience goes against my belief also. The funny thing is that my buddy would say that if I go by his experience that I would be results oriented. Of course he woud be right. But...oh well.

Vince

[Dominatore]

Not that important - And here is why;
When you have learned the basics the mathematics isnt that important after all. It is of much more importance to know how to play a hand than to know WHY it should be played in a certain way...

I play 30 60 fixed limit and 3 6 no limit and I RARELY think about math. The only thing I keep in mind while playing are the odds for specific hands probability to hit(aprox)when not being on a draw - and how much I can get paid if I hit When I draw.

That reasoning leads into what I believe is the main part of a good poker game - Psychology...

In other words: If i hit my draw how much will that specific person be willing to pay me - AND - will that justify me calling (raising for foldequity etc etc)??

This applies much more to no limit than limit though.

I am also aware of that everything comes down to mathematics, but as I use to say; You do not need to be a atom physicist to become a good tennis player...