What do you do with this draw?

[sdplayerb]

Check your math.
He raised to 800. So two people have in 800, plus a 200 small blind.

That is 1,800.

[Soh]

You're right. One of the hands that I hate is KQ. This is because, for example, if I go all-in and get called, usually the caller has a pair or an Ace.

Unless you kind of know your opponent will raise 2 times the BB with weak hands, it can't be that wrong to fold KQ from the BB.

Although my main question was about the flop play, it's interesting that the discussion spread about pre-flop play.

Thank you

Soh

[sdplayerb]

You're welcome.
And you make a great point saying:
"it can't be that wrong to fold KQ from the BB."
Another reason for this is that the chips you would win here would be worth less than the chips you lose as you would become close to a short stack.

Just as an fyi, had you been the preflop raiser with KQ and that flop comes, push right in if the pot is close to yours or his stack.

[BradleyT]

Well if he has any pocket pair and you push, he's looking at a 3600 pot and has to call 1800 so he's got the right odds to call with anything from 22-AA. Of course he doesn't know you're on a draw and would probably fold 22 - 66 and possibly 88-99.

But I don't think he's behind often enough here (raise in EP with 22-77? doubtful) to not call. The blinds are coming up on him soon and if he folds here the blinds are gonna take out 600 of his 1800 he has left. I think he calls often enough and has you beat often enough to make this a -EV play for you.

[DrPhysic]

Soh,

"This guy with 3000 in chips in early position raises to 800. Everyone folded to you, and let's say you decided to call for another 400 with KQo from the BB."

I have to agree with sdplayerb. All the discussion in this thread amounts to "How do I extricate myself from the trap I already have my foot in?"

KQo is a lousy hand on a full table. See D. Brunson's list of "trouble hands" in SS. It's playable short or HU, but not on a full table, especially after a raise. In fact, I will fold it after a limp. If you had folded in the first place you would have been much better off.

Wait for a decent hand like 22, or Axs or even KQs.

Doc

[Soh]

Thanks for the posts everyone.

This is what I think.

Although those people who mentioned other than all-in have a point, I think to go all-in is the way to go, especially with the amount of the chips the raiser and the BB had.

One thing I realized about multi-table tournaments is that you got to (play well and) get lucky to win. In other words, If you just play solid poker, it makes you very dicfficult to make good money, unless you get very lucky, IMO.

By going all-in, you give yourself a chance to win a big pot (get lucky,) not to mention you give yourself a maximum chance of winning the pot on the flop.

Everyone know that you got to play different from ring games and tournaments. Maybe "gambling" once in a while with a hand that doesn't seem to be the best hand but have a reasonable chance to win is important in tournament.

I could be wrong.

Soh

[Canada Kelly]

e. And call a raise.

bet an amount that might give him the impression that you hit and he might let you get away with it and maybe draw to your hand. If he goes all-in, you have a decision to make

[cferejohn]

Hmm. This thread's been around for a couple days but I just now read it. I'm surprised by responses on a couple counts:

1. People are almost universally advocating folding to a min raise in the BB with KQo. Now, if the min-raiser had always been making 'normal' raises I might agree, since this now looks like a monster. However, if the player was a habitual min-raiser there is no way I lay this down.

2. Against most opponents, on that flop, I check-raise all-in. Again if I *know* my opponent would only min raise from EP with a big pair, I don't think this is a good idea (but I wouldn't have called preflop in the first place).

Some players will min raise in shallow money with something like a medium pair because they want to be able to lay it down. If this player has 88/99, you could well push him off of it here (and even if you don't you have a ton of outs).

If you check and he checks it back, well, hey, free card to hit your straight...

I might be too aggressive with draws in shallow money, but I like making smaller stacks make decisions for all their chips.

Your milage may vary.

[sdplayerb]

While in many instances I agree with a check raise here.
But if he bets he is pretty much pot committed, which takes this away. Thus I just push right in (if in the hand, which I'm not).

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
Soh,

"KQo is a lousy hand on a full table. See D. Brunson's list of "trouble hands" in SS. It's playable short or HU, but not on a full table, especially after a raise. In fact, I will fold it after a limp. If you had folded in the first place you would have been much better off.

Wait for a decent hand like 22, or Axs or even KQs.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

So 22 is a decent hand while KQo is a "trouble hand".
As a relative novice this raises a question for me which I'd like some help with. In Sklansky & Malmuth's rankings
KQ is class 4 while 22 is class 7. But Doc would prefer to play 22 preflop in this situation. Why?

I realize that S&M rankings were devised for Limit ring games, but would they be all that much different for NL tournament games? Where can I find the differences?

Thanks,
Jonathan