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  #21  
Old 11-16-2005, 08:56 PM
GtrHtr GtrHtr is offline
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Default Re: KK, when to let it go

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Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds</font>, Hero raises</font>, SB 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls .



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Couldn't you raise here?

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uh, yes [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
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  #22  
Old 11-16-2005, 09:49 PM
matt hooley matt hooley is offline
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Default Re: KK, when to let it go

getting 3-bet on the flop is not crushing my dreams. I can get away from the hand later. granted, I can definitely see the case for calling the flop, but that's just going to lead to a call down. my default play in this situation is probably raising the flop, because it's WA/WB.
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  #23  
Old 11-16-2005, 10:02 PM
milesdyson milesdyson is offline
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Default Re: KK, when to let it go

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the flop raise if for value

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my default play in this situation is probably raising the flop, because it's WA/WB.

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first, this is inconsistent.

raising for value only works when your opponent will call your raises with worse hands. in this case, even halfway decent players can fold JJ and under on this board. so where's the value in raising?
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  #24  
Old 11-16-2005, 10:09 PM
matt hooley matt hooley is offline
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Default Re: KK, when to let it go

I do think it's possible to get called by a worse hand. I'm not assuming necessarily that my opponent plays "halfway decent." But my full assesment of the situation is going to depend on any reads.
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  #25  
Old 11-17-2005, 12:26 AM
Scuba Chuck Scuba Chuck is offline
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Default Re: KK, when to let it go

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cap preflop and raise the flop.
given your play, bad fold on the river, you definitely need to show this down.

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Regarding a river call. Is this true even after an overcall? Is this true because of the limit? It would seem to me that once you consider all the betting, a river bet, and overcall, isn't our hero already behind? I agree that if it was HU on the river, I would have to make a crying call.

I'm asking, as I am trying to learn how to save 1 or 2 BBs here or there.
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  #26  
Old 11-17-2005, 12:42 AM
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Default Re: KK, when to let it go

grunch

given the pf action the SB could have a Q, but with his 3 betting hands you are likely beat with tyope fo flop,

river fold is good and with the BB calling you are likely beat, I dont think 13:1 is enough to justify that 2 ppl dont have the A
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  #27  
Old 11-17-2005, 01:05 AM
UATrewqaz UATrewqaz is offline
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Default Re: KK, when to let it go

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Let it go, pot's too small.



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instead of letting this thread die with this as its last post, let me bump this to remind everyone how not to reply to hand posts..

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Personally I feel his post was great. Doesn't SSHE/Ed Miller stress the first question you should ask yourself regarding any hand decision no matter what is

"How big is the pot?"

That should be a mantra oft-repeated... no?
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  #28  
Old 11-17-2005, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: KK, when to let it go

i think the point was more that it was so short and shallow.... it was almost like it was me posting through another account

Edit: Btw ive reconsidered my initial analysis. not sure i fully thought it through regarding WA/WB issues. but the reason i dont understand the conceptual application here is because there are three players in the pot. as such most wa/wb lines arent relevant.

if anyone could explain this id be grateful....
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  #29  
Old 11-17-2005, 01:50 AM
Mathieu Mathieu is offline
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Default Re: KK, when to let it go

Hey Mikey,

Welcome to the forums.

This flop is bad for hero's hand, and I agree with you on that point. SB did 3 bet pre-flop, but he could have hands like JJ, TT, and because the pot is big and we are getting very good pot odds on this flop, we don't want to fold for just one bet when we know that SB could still be betting with a weaker hand.

The A on the turn is actually a good card for us since it reduces the chances that we are up against a Ax hand. The SB is still betting, but nobody raised him yet, so he could still be betting is Jacks or whatever. How about the caller? Well this is 0.15/0.30, so a player's call generally means that he has... well 2 cards. Ok not that bad but you get the idea.

Anyways, given that the A is a good card, and that nobody other than SB showed aggression, and SB could still be betting a weaker hand we can call down in this big pot.

On the river we have to call, even if we are likely beat. The pot is so big that we need to be pretty sure that we are beat in order to fold here. The decision to call or fold is really on the turn (2 big bets) and not on the river.
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  #30  
Old 11-17-2005, 02:06 AM
Mathieu Mathieu is offline
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Default Re: KK, when to let it go

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fold the flop though - SB 3-bet you, and you're certainly behind with no odds to catch your 2 outer (with another player calling already)


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I don't like the fold on this flop, this is 0.15/0.30. A preflop 3 bettor, does not necessarily slow down because there are overs to his pair on the board. He could very well be taking a stab with JJ or TT. The flop caller has a very wide range of hands here.

I think the size of the pot justifies a call (closing the action) given that there is still a chance that we are still ahead vs these opponents.
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