the line between inducing bluffs / weak bets and protecting your hand

wiggs73 · #1 11-12-2005, 05:55 AM

Two hands in particular, but the general theory behind them applies to a lot of hands I play. In general, I would deem myself as TAG. I say that just to point out that check-calling is not the typical line I take on many hands.

That being said, during any hand, I try to put my opponent on a range. If I think I have the opponent drawing slim and the that they will bet if I check, but fold if I bet, I will often check call to feign weakness. Lately though, this has been backfiring on me and it has me wondering when should I stop check-calling for value and instead bet out (or raise) to protect my hand.

Here are the 2 hands from tonight...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP1 (t3510)
MP2 (t1285)
MP3 (t9465)
CO (t8065)
Button (t3885)
SB (t1795)
Hero (t1940)
UTG (t660)
UTG+1 (t5890)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO calls t100, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (t250) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t100, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t450) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t200, Hero calls t200.

River: (t850) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: t850

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

CO (t4074)
Hero (t5222)
SB (t10135)
BB (t28358)
UTG (t7189)
UTG+1 (t10311)
MP1 (t17393)
MP2 (t6371)
MP3 (t5505)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t600, 4 folds, Hero raises to t1800, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t1200.

Flop: (t4000) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets t600, Hero calls t600.

Turn: (t5200) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets t600, Hero calls t600.

River: (t6400) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets t2400, Hero calls t2172 (All-In).

Final Pot: t10972

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A couple of other notes...

1. In the first hand, I will often raise AK from a blind with one limper. I felt that in this hand, I didn't have quite enough chips to do so and play the flop optimally.

2. In both the hands, I think I may should have raised the turn because there are so many river scare cards for my hand. If this is the case, please say so... but this is a thought I had just reading over and posting the hands.

#2 11-12-2005, 06:42 AM

your playing the hands way to passivly.
you say you r not one to check and call yet thats exactly what you have done on the two hands.
hand 1:
the only reason why you would consider limping here would be if you didnt wanna commit any chips to the pot before the hand developed.however that argument is only valid with a deep stack but with your stack you should be delighted to commit as many chips as possible to it.
after the flop you have TPTK but the board is scary.
you have a flush draw and a possible str ,yet you still dont bet and giving the villan a free card here is even a bigger mistake than not raising preflop.
the turn is another heart and you still dont bet and you still fail to try to take the pot away or define your hand or get any info about villan ?that is very passive poker.
when you just called preflop with AK,what were hoping to flop?

hand two:
again your going into check calling mode.
you have about 3K left after the flop,ask your self here are you willing to go broke here with one over card on the board?if you answer yes,then you should push here because there is a good chance that villan is just bluffing and he would fold to your push.also a push would make sure that you will see the turn and the river card both which may help you.i think again considering your stack you should deffo gamble here:you have second pair,and a back door nut flush draw+2 other Ks that would more than likely win the hand for you.so this is an easy push on the flop.
but know this that ever time the villan bets and you call ,your giving him the correct odds to draw and making it harder for him to release his hand.
i hope this helps.

JustPlayingSmart · #3 11-12-2005, 07:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ask your self here are you willing to go broke here with one over card on the board?if you answer yes,then you should push here because there is a good chance that villan is just bluffing and he would fold to your push

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty bad advice. If villain is bluffing, then making him fold would be stupid. If he has an ace he is probably calling a push. The only reason to push would be if you thought villain had a flush draw and wanted to charge him to draw. If villain does not have a flush draw, we are either behind, or villain has 5 outs or less. So, if we don't think villain has a flush draw, the best option is to call because it allows us to get our chips in against hands that have us beat AND hands that we beat. If we push, we only get chips in against hands that have us beat.

To OP: In hand I would raise preflop, bet flop, check/raise flop, bet turn, yada yada yada. I would be trying to put money in the pot with AK. I agree that your stack size makes playing a missed AK out of position difficult, but I think you have too much hand to check here.

In hand 2, I think I would just push after the limper. I know you wanted action with your KK, so if I made this raise it would be with the intention of going broke on the flop no matter what, so given that, your postflop play is fine with me.

#4 11-12-2005, 09:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ask your self here are you willing to go broke here with one over card on the board?if you answer yes,then you should push here because there is a good chance that villan is just bluffing and he would fold to your push

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty bad advice. If villain is bluffing, then making him fold would be stupid. If he has an ace he is probably calling a push. The only reason to push would be if you thought villain had a flush draw and wanted to charge him to draw. If villain does not have a flush draw, we are either behind, or villain has 5 outs or less. So, if we don't think villain has a flush draw, the best option is to call because it allows us to get our chips in against hands that have us beat AND hands that we beat. If we push, we only get chips in against hands that have us beat.

To OP: In hand I would raise preflop, bet flop, check/raise flop, bet turn, yada yada yada. I would be trying to put money in the pot with AK. I agree that your stack size makes playing a missed AK out of position difficult, but I think you have too much hand to check here.

In hand 2, I think I would just push after the limper. I know you wanted action with your KK, so if I made this raise it would be with the intention of going broke on the flop no matter what, so given that, your postflop play is fine with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think its bad advice at all.if villan is bluffing with the board being what it is and out stack size we should be happy to take the pot here.
my suggestion was to push as oppose to call and not push as oppose to fold.
calling here i think is the worse play.
villan may not have a A but flush draw so a call is out of question.
what i was trying to tell him is that he really has two options fold or push .giving the size of the blinds and the stack he will have left i dont think a push is a bad play at all.

wiggs73 · #5 11-12-2005, 11:56 AM

Wanabe, you point out that I went into check-call mode on both hands... I thought I already pointed that out in my post though. I know I check-called these, but like I said, I posted these hands because that is exactly how I don't normally play. Any time I start to add a new "move" to my arsenal, I use it at the wrong time, execute it poorly, etc. early on. I think that check-calling a hand down is probably the optimal play to use sometimes, however I doubt that it was in either of these hands, but especially hand 1. Typically, I'd play hand 1 by raising pre-flop and checking the flop when it hits trying to rep JJ-KK, hoping he bets, and then jamming it. I think this is standard and had I done that, there wouldn't have been anything to post... Moving on...

Hand 1, thank you for pointing out just how scary the board was on the flop. I think I said it was scary on the turn, but you're right... I should have protected it on the flop.

Hand 2, I tend to disagree with you. I should have said in the OP that I was looking to double up here and was willing to do so even if an ace hit. I actually didn't put villain on an ace anyway. I guess he could have had one, but he had been limp-calling so many hands that he could have had a small to medium pair, 2 paint cards, small to medium suited connectors, etc. On that flop, I felt there was a great chance I was ahead and I didn't want to let him quit bluffing because I felt that he would bluff until I had doubled up or at least bluff enough so that I could push the turn and he would have the odds to call with hands I was ahead of.

Hope I didn't come across wrong in this post, but I have played enough so that I know check-calling is frowned upon, that you should protect your hand, etc. Hand 1, I'm fine with jamming the flop now. Hand 2, I'd still like to hear some reasoning as to if, when, and why I should leave check-call mode and get my chips in via a raise.

#6 11-12-2005, 01:39 PM

first of all i didnt mean to offend you by stating that check calling is a weak move.i just analyz the play IMO.
back to the second hand though.
pot is 4k and you at this stage have abt 3k left and i think villan has abut 8k or there abouts.
you say you wanna double up so your just calling his bets.
you also say that you actually dont think he has an A.
the thing is flop can fit many hands that would call your preflop raise ,with A T and two hearts in it.
i think the pot at this stage is big enough for you to wanna take it home.
if he is bluffing and has nothing,he can see that your pot commited so he is not gonna make any more bluff attemps after the flop unless he is really stupid(remember ,you raises preflop,there is A on the flop ,and you call his bet,he must be thinking what you could have and then still decides to bet).
also when you call his bets cold he will be getting the odds to draw to even inside str and even wait there with a PP lower than urs that may surface on the turn or river.
i undestand you wanna double up here but if u had 5K before the hand and doubling up would give you 10K.
after the flop you have about 3K left and you take the pot down there you will have 7K or after the turn near 8K.
with blinds of 300/600 the difference is only 2 rounds.
do you think getting them extra chips for thoes two rounds is worth risking going broke if you have the option of staying in with 7K or 8K stack?