I guess it's time to get it all in -- flop bluff

[scdavis0]

Without reads I would consider this bluff pretty standard. His most likely hands are a draw or weak two pair. An overpair has any made hand he has crushed, and he can't call with a draw. Of course sometimes he'll show you the nuts.

Raising to $70 and then shutting down may be a less expensive way to get the same result.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP ($126.43)
CO ($113.25)
Hero ($207.90)
SB ($135.70)
BB ($18.24)
UTG ($373.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, MP calls $2, CO calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $13</font>, SB (poster) calls $12, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $11, MP folds, CO calls $11.

Flop: ($56) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $8</font>, UTG folds, CO folds, Hero calls $194.90 (All-In)..

or you could fold..

[Ghazban]

There's a great Ray Zee post somewhere in the archives where he talks about bet sizing and betting the smallest amount that will make them fold when you want them to fold and the largest amount they will call when you want them to call.

Anyway, why push when raising to $45-$50 has the exact same effect and is hella cheaper? If you had clubs or something that had some chance of winning the hand if called, pushing might be okay but you don't need to get called very often for this to be a -EV.

[theweatherman]

I think most people on theforum would agree that massive overbet type bluffs, are stupid and bad. Sure the bet is weak, but you are losing to every single hand in the game.

every. single. hand.

This seems extremely reckless. The bluff preflop was ok, but with that huge pot and the worst possible hand I'm not so sure you want to being putting all your chips in.

This line always appears to me as weak. What would you have that you would legitimatly play like this? 33? AA? TT? It really makes no sense except for a bluff.

Food for thought.

[djoyce003]

I don't really care how this worked out, it's a horrible play. You have no hand and no draw...if the guy has any pair above a 6 you are basically drawing dead to running 4's or 5's or a running straight. You know he's got a piece of this board because he led out into the preflop raiser.

If he calls you with an ace high flush draw he's still ahead of you and drawing to improve.....I'd probably call with an ace high flush draw because I know you don't have the boat here because you'd have no reason to play it this way, and I know you didn't raise with a 3....so i've got 2 shots at 13 outs to win if my ace outs are good. If I had something like AQ of clubs i'd have 17 outs........horrible play...it might have worked out, but you bet $200 to win 50...if it doesn't work basically every time it's -EV.

[scdavis0]

I'm just not crazy about him calling a raise to $45 with a club draw trying to gamble and hit.

If I was going to raise less, it would be to about $65 minimum.

I think we'd agree that this type of bet in these games is rarely a hand that can stand this sort of flop action. When everyone else does me the amazing service of folding, my raise seems almost mandatory.

Why raise a 45 suited (essentially a junk hand) in position if you aren't going to squeeze out every bit of equity in every situation?

[Ghazban]

I have no problem with the raise; just the amount. I agree that the raise is mandatory.

[scdavis0]

Yeah I thought about it after the hand that raising to $70 achieves exactly the same thing, but saves the extra $35-40 when he has a monster.

To respond to some other posts, I'm representing exactly AA/KK which I would absolutely play in this manner on the flop. Surely you guys aren't going to just call this bet on the flop with an overpair?

Any decent raise that kills his odds to draw to a flush puts over 1/2 his stack in the pot, so might as well put him on all-in. I'd also play a hand with a 3 in it in this manner. Just go ahead and get all-in and see if he calls. With the nut full I'd probably just call and let him catch a flush or something.

[theweatherman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just not crazy about him calling a raise to $45 with a club draw trying to gamble and hit.

If I was going to raise less, it would be to about $65 minimum.

I think we'd agree that this type of bet in these games is rarely a hand that can stand this sort of flop action. When everyone else does me the amazing service of folding, my raise seems almost mandatory.

Why raise a 45 suited (essentially a junk hand) in position if you aren't going to squeeze out every bit of equity in every situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, you should be crazy about him gambling with incorrect odds for the flush.

I agree that if you are planning on raising in position then you probably have to bet almost any flop (maybe not a As Ks Qs) But your over bet is ridiculous and terrible.

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm just not crazy about him calling a raise to $45 with a club draw trying to gamble and hit.

If I was going to raise less, it would be to about $65 minimum.

I think we'd agree that this type of bet in these games is rarely a hand that can stand this sort of flop action. When everyone else does me the amazing service of folding, my raise seems almost mandatory.

Why raise a 45 suited (essentially a junk hand) in position if you aren't going to squeeze out every bit of equity in every situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, you should be crazy about him gambling with incorrect odds for the flush.

I agree that if you are planning on raising in position then you probably have to bet almost any flop (maybe not a As Ks Qs) But your over bet is ridiculous and terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have issue with the entire premise of a bluff here, and not the fact that I made a greater than pot-sized raise. As I've stated 3 times (and also in the original post), raising to $70 is certainly superior than simply pushing. However the bluff itself should be standard.

Whether you agree or disagree with the play, some of the analysis here is shockingly bad.

It's a bad play because I have the worst hand possible? One of the necessary elements of a pure bluff is to have a terrible hand. How can that be a reason for a bluff to be wrong?

You guys would call here with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? Despite having entirely incorrect odds to do so? What is going on here?