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  #11  
Old 10-30-2005, 06:10 PM
Watain Watain is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 103
Default Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair

[ QUOTE ]
I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

[/ QUOTE ]

WouldŽnt you actually raise and hope the KJ would call?

If a KJ seeŽs the flop for 2 sb and 3 people call, they will be paying 10:2 => 5:1 making their 6 outs unprofitable.

And since poker is a zero-sum game... blah blah.

----
And why the hell does it say "poker novice" in the bottom? - Something i didŽnt write...
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  #12  
Old 10-30-2005, 06:32 PM
RatFink RatFink is offline
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Location: Waiting for the Long Run
Posts: 35
Default Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair

[ QUOTE ]
Would the correct play be to smooth call the flop and raise the turn if a blank ( <=8) falls

[/ QUOTE ]

Any card < 8 is actually not a good thing to see given this flop texture especially with both blinds in.

Betting the flop is good. Raising pre-flop to open and betting the flop is better. With the SB donking here, the raise is good as it puts pressure on MP2 to get rid of overcards.
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  #13  
Old 10-30-2005, 06:33 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

[/ QUOTE ]

WouldŽnt you actually raise and hope the KJ would call?

If a KJ seeŽs the flop for 2 sb and 3 people call, they will be paying 10:2 => 5:1 making their 6 outs unprofitable.

And since poker is a zero-sum game... blah blah.

----
And why the hell does it say "poker novice" in the bottom? - Something i didŽnt write...

[/ QUOTE ]


In this hand, 5 people limped for 1 bet. No one raised. With your raise on the flop, overcards are getting 7:2 ($1 went to the rake).

Sure you could still be ahead if an overcard comes, but are you really going to be happy, and how are you going to play it with people left to act behind you? This is a pot you what to take down now or at least thin the field as much as possible. At the very least, I want to buy last position for the turn.
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  #14  
Old 10-30-2005, 06:49 PM
Watain Watain is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 103
Default Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

[/ QUOTE ]

WouldŽnt you actually raise and hope the KJ would call?

If a KJ seeŽs the flop for 2 sb and 3 people call, they will be paying 10:2 => 5:1 making their 6 outs unprofitable.

And since poker is a zero-sum game... blah blah.

----
And why the hell does it say "poker novice" in the bottom? - Something i didŽnt write...

[/ QUOTE ]


In this hand, 5 people limped for 1 bet. No one raised. With your raise on the flop, overcards are getting 7:2 ($1 went to the rake).

Sure you could still be ahead if an overcard comes, but are you really going to be happy, and how are you going to play it with people left to act behind you? This is a pot you what to take down now or at least thin the field as much as possible. At the very least, I want to buy last position for the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The positional factor seems quite valueable here. ItŽs quite hard (for me at least) to estimate what is best when more people are in the pot. We are ahead now. But suppose two opponents hold: ak and qj...

They might both make a mistake on the flop by calling a raise. But... If both calls the raise, is it still to our advantage. DoesnŽt seem that way, but iŽll try to do some calculations and see where they lead me.
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  #15  
Old 10-30-2005, 07:00 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

[/ QUOTE ]

WouldŽnt you actually raise and hope the KJ would call?

If a KJ seeŽs the flop for 2 sb and 3 people call, they will be paying 10:2 => 5:1 making their 6 outs unprofitable.

And since poker is a zero-sum game... blah blah.

----
And why the hell does it say "poker novice" in the bottom? - Something i didŽnt write...

[/ QUOTE ]


In this hand, 5 people limped for 1 bet. No one raised. With your raise on the flop, overcards are getting 7:2 ($1 went to the rake).

Sure you could still be ahead if an overcard comes, but are you really going to be happy, and how are you going to play it with people left to act behind you? This is a pot you what to take down now or at least thin the field as much as possible. At the very least, I want to buy last position for the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The positional factor seems quite valueable here. ItŽs quite hard (for me at least) to estimate what is best when more people are in the pot. We are ahead now. But suppose two opponents hold: ak and qj...

They might both make a mistake on the flop by calling a raise. But... If both calls the raise, is it still to our advantage. DoesnŽt seem that way, but iŽll try to do some calculations and see where they lead me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the biggest factor here is that you are probably ahead now, but your hand is extremely vulnerable. Also, there are 30+ scare cards for the turn (9-A, 4, 5). Even if you are ahead if one of these cards falls, what are you going to do with 2 people behind you? Check Call the turn and the river? Bet and fold to a raise? Just try and win the pot now.
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  #16  
Old 10-30-2005, 07:02 PM
Watain Watain is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 103
Default Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to raise the flop to try to get overcards (like KJ) out of there.

[/ QUOTE ]

WouldŽnt you actually raise and hope the KJ would call?

If a KJ seeŽs the flop for 2 sb and 3 people call, they will be paying 10:2 => 5:1 making their 6 outs unprofitable.

And since poker is a zero-sum game... blah blah.

----
And why the hell does it say "poker novice" in the bottom? - Something i didŽnt write...

[/ QUOTE ]


In this hand, 5 people limped for 1 bet. No one raised. With your raise on the flop, overcards are getting 7:2 ($1 went to the rake).

Sure you could still be ahead if an overcard comes, but are you really going to be happy, and how are you going to play it with people left to act behind you? This is a pot you what to take down now or at least thin the field as much as possible. At the very least, I want to buy last position for the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The positional factor seems quite valueable here. ItŽs quite hard (for me at least) to estimate what is best when more people are in the pot. We are ahead now. But suppose two opponents hold: ak and qj...

They might both make a mistake on the flop by calling a raise. But... If both calls the raise, is it still to our advantage. DoesnŽt seem that way, but iŽll try to do some calculations and see where they lead me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the biggest factor here is that you are probably ahead now, but your hand is extremely vulnerable. Also, there are 30+ scare cards for the turn (9-A, 4, 5). Even if you are ahead if one of these cards falls, what are you going to do with 2 people behind you? Check Call the turn and the river? Bet and fold to a raise? Just try and win the pot now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken. I agree.
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  #17  
Old 10-31-2005, 03:45 AM
jakbse jakbse is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25
Default Re: Wait for the turn with an overpair

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8, 8.
3 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6, 2, 3 (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, SB calls.

River: (8 BB) 4 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, SB calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for all your input. The reason for this post was a section in SSHE, "Two overpair hands" which claims to give up a small edge on the flop in order to benefit from a much larger edge on the turn (if none of the 30+ cards that could hurt my holding fell).
SB held Q3o for a flopped bottom pair and MP2 Q5o for the rivered straight. My biggest error in this hand was definetly to bet the river when there was four to a straight on the board. MP2's play is really terrible. First he didn't have the odds to call the flop after my raise, and second he didn't raise that river.
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