Value bet straights and flushes when the board pairs

jakbse · #1 09-21-2005, 03:22 PM

These two hands are from todays session. Opinions on all streets are appreciated, but my question is really the river value bet, are we good often enough to justify that?
Hand 1: Villian is LP-P over 41 hands

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, MP1 folds, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, Button folds, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP2 calls.

River: (12.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

Hand 2: Villian is super fishy with 79/1/0,3

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB raises, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (8.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

closer2313 · #2 09-21-2005, 03:29 PM

Why are you 3 betting the flop in hand 1 with a gutshot?

I probably just call the river raise in hand 2.

jakbse · #3 09-21-2005, 03:41 PM

That's a misstake at the time I thought of it as a OESD and that the raise was for value. Looks a bit stupid now. I think it's a call, but quite close to fold.

#4 09-21-2005, 03:45 PM

I like the way you played the first hand. I think the value bet is 50/50. The second hand I am folding preflop. But then you played it correct up to the river imo. I 3-bet this river. I think he made trips since I dont think he is playing Qrag.

TomBrooks · #5 09-21-2005, 03:45 PM

Hand 1

You can probably raise for value on the river with this one. No one showed much strength on the turn. Your flop three bet might have scared a low two pair like J8 or JT into not betting, but the chance of someone having specifically those hands and them not betting them stronger are not so great.

However, for that reason they might have such a hand I don't like your flop 3bet. Another reason I don't like is because you were on an 11:1 draw to a straight and a 15:1 draw to Top Pair which is not so strong on this board. I don't see it to your advantage to knock out players at that point who could potentially pay you off if you connect. I don't think your 3bet would knock out an Ace with middle or bottom pair anyway, so if your ace came in you would either be losing more money to two pair, or you would rather have those players still in to pay you off for your Top Pair 2nd Kicker.

aargh57 · #6 09-21-2005, 03:48 PM

On the first hand I don't like your 3-bet on the flop. You have a gutshot and 1 overcard. If the T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]comes it puts a 3 flush on board. I think this is a pretty easy fold on the flop.

If we disregard that though I think the river is fine. I don't think you can be to worried about him. Although a call may be good to here because if BB calls you make as much if you only call but lose only one if you're behind. So I guess I changed my mind. I think a call here is better but it's pretty close. Heads up I definitely raise.

Hand 2

I don't think I raise here pf. I can't see putting in extra money with JTs.

I think the flop it's better to just call and go for overcalls. You're not getting the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to fold so I think your just chasing money out here.

On the river I'm re-raising. I think calling is seeing monsters under the bed.

numeri · #7 09-21-2005, 03:49 PM

Hand 1: I don't like your flop play. What was your reasoning? By the river, I think you're good often enough to 3-bet and call a cap if it comes.

Hand 2: I'd say the same here on the river. I'm interested to see what other thoughts are, though.

Fantam · #8 09-21-2005, 03:51 PM

Hand 1:
I dont think that you should be 3-betting the flop. With the flush draw possible, your gut-shot and top pair outs are not clean. Also an A may complete a straight draw for someone else, or else gives anyone with a T or a Q a draw. In fact I dont think that you have enough outs to even call, so I would actually fold to the flop raise.

I think I would have preferred to call MP2's river bet, as opposed to raise. I doubt whether MP2 raised the flop with just Jx. I think its more likely that he had something like 2 pair and may have made a full house when he leads with a bet on the river.

Hand 2:
I prefer the way you played this hand.

I think you should value bet this river. There are plenty of worse hands that will probably call. I would also prefer to 3-bet the river. However its possible that button is raising with a full house, so I dont think that calling button's river raise is terrible.

numeri · #9 09-21-2005, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I raise here pf. I can't see putting in extra money with JTs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Check the action again. And paying 2 isn't the end of the world - JTs plays fine agains a large fied.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop it's better to just call and go for overcalls. You're not getting the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to fold so I think your just chasing money out here.

[/ QUOTE ]
We'd like them to stay in. In fact, we'd like them to pay us lots of money to stay in. You need to be getting as many bets in the pot as possible on the flop and turn, because a lone A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] isn't calling on the river.

Don't slowplay non-nut flushes - they're too vulnerable.

grayhawk · #10 09-21-2005, 03:53 PM

I would three bet the river on hand 2. He is not showing any strength (i.e. 2 pair) before the river, so I don't think he has the boat unless the possible flopped flush scared him off - he could just be calling down with top pair good kicker and hit trips on the river. Oh, and I am folding preflop with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG+1 unless the table is loose and passive. I do like this hand in late position with at least a couple of callers in front of me.

[ QUOTE ]
79/1/0,3

[/ QUOTE ]
I REALLY need to start playing at party. I've been clearing a bonus at Poker Rewards and haven't found anyone close to as fishy as this dude.