somewhat old KQs hand from my notes

[car ramrod]

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well you're basically saying i'm drawing dead on the turn, so my full house draw is pointless anyway (which could be the case). i just don't see how he can flat call the river bet with KK/QQ after the turn action (he can only have KK or QQ one way each anyway). and since the guy 3-betting is a lag, i could totally imagine him capping AK or AA here, and there are 6 combos of AA and 8 combos of AK. if he would cap with all of them on the turn, 14/16 times i'm ahead, so i can't really fold the turn.


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I don't think button is capping the turn w/ AK, maybe AA. Also, I am a little worried about the lag leading the river after all the turn action when the 3rd [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hits. Unless he is a complete maniac that would do this?

I think you're giving him way too much credit for hand reading. I really think you are behind like 80-90% of the time here.

[milesdyson]

maybe he'll lead the third heart because he thinks it will scare everyone? i don't know, but i don't see why we'd expect anyone to have a flush here often at all. i understand the fear that perhaps button is scared of the flush, but not enough to outweigh the fact that there are only two hands he could have that beat me and fourteen others i beat which are possible given his turn play (and that MP is a lag).

button got check raised by both of us on the turn... most players can figure out that we aren't going to be doing that with a flush draw.

[KingOtter]

One of my biggest problems in my game at the moment is when I see a lag betting, raising and I have half a hand I try to learn him a lesson. I'm not saying you're doing that, but I rarely give them credit for hands, and I should. I think I learned that play from reading hands like this.

MP's play here is classic set-play, IMO. Maybe it is different between full ring and 6-max, and maybe Mr. Idiot is playing a top pair or 2-pair like this, but even Idiots get hands.

Maybe you won this hand and you rock at poker, but I think you're behind here a vast majority of the time. I also don't think whatever concepts you're trying to illustrate with this hand are very widely applicable.

KO

[milesdyson]

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I also don't think whatever concepts you're trying to illustrate with this hand are very widely applicable.

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i don't think there's a specific concept, and i'm not trying to illustrate anything. like i said earlier, this hand is up for debate. i just think this hand is fun to dissect.

as far as the rest of your post goes, i agree with worrying more about what the lag has than the other dude, but i still think i beat enough of the hands he plays this way to make the river raise profitable.

88 and 22 would play it like this, but i have to think he would go crazy on the flop with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[KingOtter]

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i don't think there's a specific concept, and i'm not trying to illustrate anything. like i said earlier, this hand is up for debate. i just think this hand is fun to dissect.

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Yeah, it's fun to watch idiots play and scratch your head and wonder what the hell they were thinking.

But perhaps a 'Kids, don't try this at home' disclaimer for this hand might be needed... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This is not ABC poker, nor standard. This is you with a specific read that this guy will pump a lesser hand, and you taking advantage of it.

He couldn't imagine he would be able to push anyone out of this hand, especially in 6-max. So either he's tired of having so much money at the table, or he has 22 (IMO, he'd probably cap 88 pf, no?).

KO

[milesdyson]

no i don't think he thought he could blow anyone off their hands, but i've seen many a time someone just bet their hand again on a "scare" card for whatever reason.

one thing... if i simply called this river, would the hand be ABC/boring?

[car ramrod]

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the fact that there are only two hands he could have that beat me and fourteen others i beat which are possible given his turn play

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If your read on button is that he is willing to bet/cap the turn with AK, and the lag/maniac will lead the river with a low set, then by all means raise.

But, I think a good read is needed to even think about raising this river. (not saying you didn't have that read) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
no i don't think he thought he could blow anyone off their hands, but i've seen many a time someone just bet their hand again on a "scare" card for whatever reason.

one thing... if i simply called this river, would the hand be ABC/boring?

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Yes... for some reason I had thought you capped it on the turn so that may have caused some of my chagrin. Had he not I would have called the 3-bet. Would you have capped it?

KO

[ErrantNight]

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Why didn't you check-raise the flop?

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because check/call is fine.