99 $15/$30 online... bad fold? - Page 2

#11 08-26-2005, 11:43 AM

I'm going to disagree with the posters who advocate raising the flop. You have a vulnerable hand that you'd like to protect, but a flop raise here -- last to act after a bettor and 2 callers -- accomplishes nothing other than building a pot, making it less incorrect for your opponents to fold when you raise the turn.

As for the turn, that turn card is about the worst card in the deck for you but since you're closing the action I think it's worth a call. SB could have anything and UTG+1 could be on a draw.

BradL · #12 08-26-2005, 11:45 AM

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sucks. weak-passive. horrendous! live to fight another day?? might have a 7???

bet your damn hand on the flop. This is results-oriented reasoning to the worst degree.

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...and for the love of christ raise the turn.

-Brad

BradL · #13 08-26-2005, 11:50 AM

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Anyone like raising the turn with the intention of folding to a 3-bet and taking a free showdown?

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Absolutely.

-Brad

Steve Giufre · #14 08-26-2005, 12:36 PM

The fold is real bad. I would raise the flop just about everytime and take it from there. On the turn I like calling better than raising but I guess either is fine. If one of them was real sharp they might take a shot at 3 betting you with a worse hand since you defintely dont have a 7 and its kinda unlikely you have a flush.

arkady · #15 08-26-2005, 01:02 PM

Actually a flop raise is not the optimal situation what so ever.

You want to protect your vulnerable hand and raise the turn, if you can get any of them to fold a 6 outer more power to you. Raising the flop will only tie them into the pot. The 7 is indeed a scare card, but who cares, would be much worse if that J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] catches.

Steve Giufre · #16 08-26-2005, 02:03 PM

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Actually a flop raise is not the optimal situation what so ever.

You want to protect your vulnerable hand and raise the turn, if you can get any of them to fold a 6 outer more power to you. Raising the flop will only tie them into the pot. The 7 is indeed a scare card, but who cares, would be much worse if that J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] catches.

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But what makes you think you will be able to eliminate anybody on the turn? The small blind is doing the betting and you are last to act. Nobody in between him and the sb raised the flop, so I doubt its gonna get checked to one of the limpers on the turn unless they improve. Just seems unlikely he will be able to shut anybody out on the turn. I dont see how he can protect his hand anywhere, so I would just stick a bunch of money in on the flop since I am probably ahead.

Rick Nebiolo · #17 08-26-2005, 02:37 PM

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You have the best hand for sure on the flop

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Don't agree with the above statement. Agree that hero should raise on the flop.

My observation is many players fire out of blinds with sets and two pair into a string of potential callers with the pre flop raiser acting last. I'm guessing you just exaggerated to make your point about the flop raise.

~ Rick

James282 · #18 08-26-2005, 02:43 PM

I'm surprised that no one has supplied the most obvious reason to raise the flop - to get the SB to 3 bet and clear the field when you are still likely to have the best hand. Even if the SB flashes you 2 pair you should raise to clear up 2 pair outs on later streets. If you can get it HU with 74 or something you will have 5 outs on the turn and 8 outs on the river. And most SBs who'll bet out top pair on the flop will have no problems three-betting into a clearable field against a PFR who could very well be raising for a free card.
-James

arkady · #19 08-26-2005, 03:10 PM

too much to rely on, although it would be great. raising any turn in position on this hand still seems like a smarter move.

#20 08-26-2005, 03:53 PM

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This is a tough spot since you dont have a line on your oppononent. For instance if you knew that your opponent would checkraise the flop if he had a made hand and lead out if he had a draw than you would know he cannot have a 7, and since there were two openended straights on the board he still may not have the flush, so you should continue. And if he would bet a made hand or a draw on the flop, well then he could still have somethinging like 66,88. Either way, this is a very tough spot where knowing your opponent is absolutely critical. That said, not knowing my opponent i would fold here and live to fight another day.

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because, living to fight another day is always important when calculating ev in a cash game.

I think this is definitely a call for you.

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I will stand by my statement, You should fold the turn verse the typical opponent. As far as raising the flop or not raising the flop. With 3 people already committed to the pot, and the fact that your equity in this pot is going to change dramatically with the turn card, you should not raise the flop but instead wait for the right turn card to raise when your advantage will be much greater with one card to come. If the turn card was a heart, I would call, If it was a 7 but not a heart I would call, But with the 7H hitting turn, I would fold. Also as far as preflop. I will raise 99 in middle position after two limpers if i think I will get alot of backend callers so i can build a nice pot knowing i probably have to flop a set to win. If the backend is not loose then you are better off just limping here after two people have already limped in.