Good Place for a Stop n Go?

[DCWildcat]

The Stop n Go is a move I know basically nothing about and rarely use (a leak in my game? doesn't seem too useful at the micros, maybe much more important for the higher limits). Anyway, here's a hand I think it was a good decision on.
Interpoker .25/.5

Hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in CO

Preflop:

3 folds, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

MP1 is a slightly tigher than normal fish (only slightly), but this is a weak read. MP3 has loose PF raising standards but generally plays very predictably and mostly passive postflop (I have a very strong read on him).

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

MP1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

A very unthreatening board and I have position. I'm afraid a raise will discourage a turn bet. If I call, I'm almost certain MP1 will bet the turn, MP3 will call, and I can pop them for an extra bet (maybe another on the river). Good thinking or should I just call?

Note to new members: Notice how I ended the history at the relevant point, and didn't post the turn or river. To discourage results-oriented thinking, you need to do this in addition to not posting results. There are too many posters on this forum that rightfully omit the results, but also show other players' actions after their relevant point has ended. Don't do that.

[Dave G.]

This isn't a stop n go, this is just a regular slowplay (and a weak one at that, raise the flop somewhere near the vicinity of 100% of the time here). You aren't "stopping" anywhere - you didn't start.

A stop n go is like this. You are in EP with a good hand. You bet, get 4 callers, and the guy on the end raises. Your hand is so strong that you don't really want to knock anyone out.

You call this round, knowing that everyone else is also going to call one more, but some might fold if it's two to them. Then you bet out again next round.

The "stop" is because you were aggressive, but stopped your aggression. The "go" is because you continue your aggression on the next round. It's a move you use from EP. It's just a way to get more money into the pot when you don't mind playing against a large field (a set on a drawless board is good for this sometimes).

Of course if people will habitually call 2 to them on the flop anyway then you're just better off 3-betting. But it can be useful sometimes.

[benkath1]

I think that's just a stop.

A stop n go would be if you were heads up OOP and bet that flop, called buttons raise and led out on the turn.

I'da raised that flop with mp3 trapped.

[DCWildcat]

My bad, it's a slowplay then, not a stop n go.

That said, I'm unconvinced that betting would earn me more bets. Here's what I see:

1) I raise, 2 calls. This wins me 1 extra BB from simply calling. With no PF aggression, I see the raise being called nearly all the time, and being checked on the turn, where I bet again. Considering all the fold equity built up, I think at most I'd win 2 more calls by the river.

or,

2) I call. MP1 bets out, is called, and I raise, trapping MP3. If they both fold (unlikely), I'm even with a flop raise. I think I can expect at least one villain to call down, maybe they both do.

The only way I see myself winning more by raising the flop is by getting 3-bet, which is very rare from such passive players. I think my reads are strong enough that if they call, one or both won't see showdown, which i would need to make this play better than slowplaying.

Edit: Sorry, that was pretty unclear. In other words, I expect to win 3 BB from raising the flop (1 BB on the flop, 2 more from being called down). However, if I slowplay, I win at least 3 (a bet and call on the turn, plus at least one call from my turn raise), but more likely 4 (which would only require 1 player seeing showdown).

[Dave G.]

How do you know MP1 is going to bet the turn? How do you know MP3 isn't going to just fold on the turn? You don't.

People will habitually make loose calls on the flop hoping their dreadful holding improves. By the time the turn comes though, they can be scared that everyone called their bet, or realise thatt the turn didn't help them and throw their hand away.

You are relying on passive players to play aggressively for this to work. Looks like a losing proposition to me. You are missing bets these people will happily call on the flop but won't on the turn. Additionally they'll have more of a reason for sticking around on the turn if they decide to, because the pot will be bigger.

Raise the flop.

[DCWildcat]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you know MP1 is going to bet the turn? How do you know MP3 isn't going to just fold on the turn? You don't.


[/ QUOTE ]

True. But it's quite likely they will.

The only way I really see myself making less than a flop raise would be if I called, they checked to me on the turn, I bet, and both folded. For loose passive opponents, this would be extremely unlikely. Even if both checked the turn, I bet, and only got 1 call and a river fold, I'd break even (vs. raising the flop), and this should happen at least 90% of the time against loose passives. I don't think 3 extra small bets would sway their later decisions very much.

But it looks like I'm preaching to myself. I guess I should have raised this flop. This was somewhat read dependent, too. Against typical loose/passives, I'd have raised this flop.

[benkath1]

What dave G said and how do you know Mp1 wont 3 bet his K?

Or, what if mp1 has an 8 and 3 bets you on the turn? What is your action now? You don't have the nutz at this point. You are behind KK (unlikely) or any 8. I'd rather get my info on the flop for SB's than the turn for BB's.

PS: where are you in KY? I grew up in Madisonville.

[DCWildcat]

[ QUOTE ]
What dave G said and how do you know Mp1 wont 3 bet his K?

Or, what if mp1 has an 8 and 3 bets you on the turn? What is your action now? You don't have the nutz at this point. You are behind KK (unlikely) or any 8. I'd rather get my info on the flop for SB's than the turn for BB's.

PS: where are you in KY? I grew up in Madisonville.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see him 3-betting without a K or 8, in which case you're absolutely right. As for information, that's also valid.

I live in Hebron (way northern part), but I go to school in Carolina.

[eviljeff]

although I probably instaraise this flop pushing my equity, I think your play is slightly better. I'm trying to improve my play in situations like this where a raise is a nobrainer, but calling is actually better. way to be a thinking player [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[bottomset]

I'd raise the flop here