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  #1  
Old 02-11-2003, 03:22 AM
Soh Soh is offline
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Default 34 off suite or 95 suited

15-30 game

You don't know any of the players. You post $10 in small blind. One limper call from middle postion. You decided to call. Do you rather want to have 34 off suite or 95 suited?

Thank you

Soh
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  #2  
Old 02-11-2003, 06:09 AM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
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Default Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited

Is this a trick question?
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  #3  
Old 02-11-2003, 08:30 AM
Soh Soh is offline
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Default Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited

No.

I posted this hand becuase I though the answer is ovbious, but one good player responded different, so I ws wondering what other people think about this.

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Old 02-11-2003, 01:07 PM
astroglide astroglide is offline
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Default Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited

95s, it isn't close, yawn.
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  #5  
Old 02-11-2003, 01:24 PM
MichaelD MichaelD is offline
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Default Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited

Soh,

I think this is a very interesting question.

Since I am going to attempt to make logical arguments for one hand over the other, I do feel it necessary to clarify in advance that as far as I am concerned...

BOTH HANDS SUCK!!!!!

With this being clearly said, on to my thoughts...

While I feel arguments can be made for both hands, personally, I would prefer the 34 off suit for a variety of different reasons.

When looking at these two (or any) hands, I think it is important to have an idea of the best hand you can hope to make with your starting two cards. With the 95 suited, the obvious answer would be the flush. With the 34 off suit, the obvious answer would be the straight.

If I make a straight with the 34 off suit, there is a good chance it will be a wheel. Since a wheel contains an Ace, there is a very good possibility that I will make a few bets off someone holding an Ace or possibly multiple bets off someone holding Ax suited and making two pair. Many weak players like to play any Ace.

Many weak players (players who open limp generally have a tendency to be weak from my experience) like to limp with small pairs such as 22,33,44,55, or 66 - they limp because they like to see the flop for cheap. If I make my straight and they hit their set, the payoff is potentially very good. There are very few trap situations with 34 off suit - usually you flop all of it or none of it - hardly ever will you flop top pair - for the most part - hardly ever will you not be really sure where you are at in the hand - this specific analysis being relative of course.

In other words..... From my perspective, I am less likely to make a hand that is second best and lose multiple bets with the 34 off suit than I am with the 95 suited.

I cannot emphasize enough the enormous importance I personally place on doing as much as I can to avoid hands that have a greater potential of making a hand that is second best.

It is much easier to flop top pair with 95 suited and lose.

It is much easier to make a straight with 95 suited and lose to someone playing 910 suited.

It is much easier to make a flush with 95 suited and lose multiple bets to someone who makes a bigger flush.

If there were multiple players - more than 4 besides myself (5 or more total), then I would probably take the 95 suited because although I still may make second best, the pots odds are more likely to be there for me to draw to the hand I hope to make.

I really do not feel the over card advantage that 95 suited has over 34 off suit makes up for the potential trap situations that come with it - the board is likely to contain a card bigger than a 9 or a 3 so I throw the over card advantage right out the window and look past it as I feel the other factors contribute more to the long term +/- ev of one hand over the other.

For me, the bottom line is they both absolutely suck - but if I do get fortunate and make my wheel - I am more likely to get multiples bets out of the hand as many players will play any A, and most play any A suited. Coupled with the fact that there are so few ways I can get trapped with the hand, and so few ways I can make a second best hand, I give the nod to the not so obvious 34 off suit.

A sorta similar example would be a choice between having 22 or K10 - when I say similar, I mean similar in the type of questions I ask myself when playing a cheesy hand - I understand the over card value is much greater here - and with position the K10 will likely make more money long run -I ONLY use this as an example of the type of questions I ask myself - I think it just paints a clearer picture of the importance of the questions - regardless of the outcome.

1. Which hand is easier to play after the flop?

2. Which hand am I likely to get more bets out of if I do hit?

3. Which hand am I likely to make second best with and get punished?

4. Which hand am I less likely to get trapped with?

5. Which hand am I likely to have a better idea of where I am at in the hand allowing me to save bets or make more bets? Not calling with 22 past the flop if you do not hit vs getting paid off by someone with an over pair when you do hit the 22?

Hopefully, this helps explain my thought process. While I am not saying I can give any statistical percentages or odds of which hand plays better, I do prefer the 34 off because if I hit I likely get paid off, if I do not hit, it likely does not cost me any more at all, and I am a lot less likely to hit the hand and make a second best hand.

All in all, when analyzing a situation such as this, I think the most important thing by far is to evaluate the specific thought process in order to make better overall poker decisions. Since it is blatantly obvious the hands being discussed are not going to make anyone any money long term and both are almost surely guaranteed to be long-term losers, the most valuable benefit from this situation comes from...........
How we think about which hands to play and how to play them, and to continually re-define and re-evaluate our thought process relative to our own game, the opponents we are competing against, and the applicable ensuing results.

Regardless of the minute difference between both of these garbage hands, they still possess inherent value by helping us to ask questions we can better apply to other poker situations. In my opinion, this is the value this situation offers and why I have spent so much time on two hands that do not seem worth even the slightest glance.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

PS - I am sure most of you have guessed by now that I was the player who Soh referred in his response to Majorkong that did not think the answer was soh obvious.
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  #6  
Old 02-11-2003, 01:44 PM
astroglide astroglide is offline
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Default Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited

this is a hot and cold simulation where both opponents hold RANDOM cards; we're assuming the limper has something reasonable, but the results (of what % of the time the hand will hold up) for this are still valid:

34o - 22.81%
95o - 26.72%
95s - 30.42%

as you can see, it's not even close. i know that hot and cold sims can catch a lot of backdoorisms, but the same would hold true for 34o as well.
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  #7  
Old 02-11-2003, 01:59 PM
Rick Nebiolo Rick Nebiolo is offline
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Default Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited

for 1/3 a bet i'd even take 95 offsuit against one limper over 34 suited! high cards are far more important with one or two opponents and low cards just plain suck. your wins come by stealing or flopping a pair and if you flop a pair you at least have a chance making middle or even top pair with 95.

~ Rick

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  #8  
Old 02-11-2003, 02:26 PM
Kevin J Kevin J is offline
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Default Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited

Mike-

To be honest, I didn't read your entire essay, but I could quickly tell we very much disagree on this. I don't have time right now to get into long dissertations or debates, so I'll just point out the one thing that LEAPED out and is very easy to dispute...

It is much easier to flop top pair with 95 suited and lose.

This statement is CLEARLY wrong! And probably not insignificant especially since you're discussing a heads-up situation.
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  #9  
Old 02-11-2003, 02:55 PM
andyfox andyfox is offline
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Default Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited

Neither. Now when you fold for just one chip, they're going to give you some respect when you raise the next hand from the button.
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  #10  
Old 02-11-2003, 03:05 PM
astroglide astroglide is offline
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Default Re: 34 off suite or 95 suited

so you go -ev to bank on your opponents actually paying attention to this? most don't.

i thought it was bad advice when tommy said it, and i think it's bad advice now.
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