Do you find a raise somewhere in this hand?

xenthebrain · #1 07-02-2005, 10:13 AM

Villain is 40/13/2.13

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

Where would you raise, or wouldn't you?

benkath1 · #2 07-02-2005, 10:20 AM

uhh...flop.

TPTK, I'm raising here and playing the rest accordingly.

Ortho · #3 07-02-2005, 10:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is 40/13/2.13

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

Where would you raise, or wouldn't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop raise is pointless. I'd be tempted to raise the turn, but you've got the same problem. I think that this line is fine, because you're getting all these overcalls.

hicherbie · #4 07-02-2005, 11:11 AM

i raise the flop. you have 3 people trapped. you may or may not have BB beat but with three in the middle and TPGK you have to raise. id prefer doing it early whilst people will call.

Ortho · #5 07-02-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i raise the flop. you have 3 people trapped. you may or may not have BB beat but with three in the middle and TPGK you have to raise. id prefer doing it early whilst people will call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this is a pretty clear case of it being better to wait until the turn to raise. The pot is huge, your hand is vulnerable, and all you're doing with your flop raise is pumping the pot for a draw and making it correct for weak draws to call the turn (which, admittedly, it might be anyway). There may be no way of protecting your hand here, but you certainly can't do it on the flop.

On second look, I definitely like raising the turn with my 2 pair and 2d-nutflush draw. But I hate raising the flop.

bozlax · #6 07-02-2005, 11:24 AM

I raise the flop for value.

I raise the turn for value.

If 3-bet on either street I consider slowing down, but I'm not giving a borderline maniac credit for AA/QQ just because he 3-bet preflop.

bozlax · #7 07-02-2005, 11:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop raise is pointless, if you hate money.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

You've got the best hand until proven otherwise, especially on the flop, but also on the turn. Get money into the pot while you've got the best of it.

bozlax · #8 07-02-2005, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There may be no way of protecting your hand here, but you certainly can't do it on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once the bet gets to you on the flop, you know there's no way to protect your hand immediately, and quick math tells you that it won't be possible to do it on the turn, even with a bet and a raise in front of you.

Get your money in there while you can, sez I.

Ortho · #9 07-02-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop raise is pointless, if you hate money.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

You've got the best hand until proven otherwise, especially on the flop, but also on the turn. Get money into the pot while you've got the best of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the cards that ruin our hand on the turn:
Any J
Any T (8)

These are the cards that make us deeply concerned about our hand on the turn:
Any K (4)
Any spade 7-2 (6)

These are the cards that improve our hand but give us a very hard decision: As, Qs.

That's 20 cards that are going to be hard for us. There are 4 players in the pot, and 19 small bets. Someone could've flopped a straight. There is a two-flush on board. There are 3 cards in the microlimits "play any two of these" zone. If we have an equity edge on the flop, it is microscopic.

I really think that this is straight out of SSH.

davelin · #10 07-02-2005, 12:10 PM

HU it would be pointless to raise the flop. Here, it's fine although waiting for the turn has merits.